Texas Fundamentalists Set Their Sights on Social Studies Standards
Published May 02, 2009 @ 12:55PM PT
In the first place God made idiots. This was for practice. Then he made School Boards.
- Mark Twain, Following the Equator; Pudd'nhead Wilson's New Calendar
The Texas fundamentalists on the State Board of Education have shifted their sights, now, from creationism/Intelligent Design in the science standards to Bible-based social studies standards. From the Texas Freedom Network:
The Texas State Board of Education is set to appoint a social studies curriculum “expert” panel that includes absurdly unqualified ideologues who are hostile to public education and argue that laws and public policies should be based on their narrow interpretations of the Bible.
TFN has obtained the names of “experts” appointed by far-right state board members. Those panelists will guide the revision of social studies curriculum standards for Texas public schools. They include David Barton of the fundamentalist, Texas-based group WallBuilders, whose degree is in religious education, not the social sciences, and the Rev. Peter Marshall of Peter Marshall Ministries in Massachusetts, who suggests that California wildfires and Hurricane Katrina were divine punishments for tolerance of homosexuality.
There are a lot of good folks in Texas, so I don't mean this image literally - but you can't help but fantasize that the Texas fundies could all gather in an obscure corner of Texas and, just for that little slice, do as their governor recently threatened, and secede. They could warp the minds of their young only, and leave the rest of Texas, and the United States, to learn in peace.
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I was born in Texas, but I'm glad I don't live there. In addition, it's horrible that crazy conservatives are going to tamper with the Social Studies cirriculum after somewhat tampering with science in public schools. In order to protect the dignity of the public schools of Texas, the people in that state must act to stop the nonsense. Finally, the public school systems there must be correct in their cirriculum or further risk being negatively different from the rest of the US.
Posted by Edwin Bonilla on 05/02/2009 @ 01:52PM PT
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I also left Texas over 20 years ago for the same reason. I don't think Texas, as a state, is interested in being like the rest of the U.S. However, sededing and forming their own sovereign nation would put a gun-toting and vigilante-minded nation between us and our troubled nation to the south and beget wars almost certainly.
Posted by Malcolm McKay on 05/09/2009 @ 10:27AM PT
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I have a pretty smiple question that NO one seems to want to ask or maybe I missed. Where did this information come from i.e. news paper, school board member directly where did the orginial information come from?
Posted by Paul Amschler on 05/30/2009 @ 01:59PM PT
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Follow the hyperlinks in the post, Paul. Then google for keywords, including names of the appointees, and you'll find much more.
Posted by Clay Burell on 05/30/2009 @ 02:03PM PT
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Dignity in public schools? It doesn't exist.
Posted by Adrian Stevens on 08/14/2009 @ 02:16PM PT
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This is one reason the U.S. needs to standardize curricula on the national level.
Posted by C W on 05/02/2009 @ 08:39PM PT
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No ma'am, this is one reason why government shouldn't be involved in curriculum approval.
Posted by Rock Conner on 05/09/2009 @ 10:14AM PT
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Standardized curricula would be a band-aide at best and regionally inappropriate at worse. Standardizing the process by which curricula are evaluated gives us a chance to see evidence-based curricula extend into the future.
Posted by Malcolm McKay on 05/09/2009 @ 10:24AM PT
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Malcomb: well stated.
Posted by C W on 05/09/2009 @ 11:23AM PT
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Malcolm, Please accept my apology for misspelling your name.
Posted by C W on 05/09/2009 @ 11:25AM PT
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Unfortunately, Texas is such a large market for textbooks that the textbook publishers feel forced to eidt their textbooks in order to comply with the Texas rules. This is a case of the tail wagging the dog. We need to convince the textbook publishers to publish textbooks that are scientifically and historically correct! If Texas wants their own, Bible-Belt versions, then let them publish their own versions of science and history!
Posted by Bud See on 05/09/2009 @ 05:03PM PT
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Bud i agree, That way their Children will be The LEFT BEHIND .Since the bible Belt kids will not get the correct education to fullfill in the education university and the world.
Posted by Lara Nunes on 05/09/2009 @ 05:26PM PT
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I can't believe how much "let Texas secede" and "they should do something about it or their children deserve to suffer" I have heard since Rick Perry or his devoted followers decided to mention secession. Texas is a part of the United States. Only a minority of people in Texas are problem fundamentalists, and although it seems like there is a church on every street corner, Texas' state rights' don't include a right to decide against separation of church and state. There are many people here in Texas, like me, who believe that no child should be fed religious propaganda in school. It would be better for the whole country if the whole country got involved in making sure that the actions of the Texas board of education are made very unpopular throughout Texas and the US in an effort to thwart bad and craziness.
Texas has provided me with a great bioscience education that includes evolution and I am not in any way religious. I knew in high school that Bush was a bad choice, but what did the rest of America do? They elected him. He may be from Texas but he is not representative of Texans and he was elected by all of America. Twice. In addition, the Texas board of education could easily have been elected by a minority of Texans just as Perry was, so blaming Texans for this is insane.
Texas deserves what every other state in the union deserves: good public education. Suggesting anything otherwise is more emotional than logical.
Posted by Christen Felton on 05/10/2009 @ 12:44AM PT
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"I knew in high school that Bush was a bad choice, but what did the rest of America do? They elected him."
WHEN are people going to get this straight?? In 2,000 it was handed to him by the Supreme Court; in '04 it was stolen, period. I wish people would get it straight.
I'm another Texan who lives elsewhere - Oregon. Texas WAS a nice place until ideologues convinced a bunch of people that their religion was being attacked by their being forbidden to enact it into law. Nowadays, Texas is still a nice place, but it's full of Texans like that. We used to respect the rights of others, as well as DEMAND that others respect ours. Now too many demand respect and offer none. It ain't home any more.
Ian
Posted by Ian MacLeod on 05/10/2009 @ 03:54PM PT
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National standards, and a nationally standardized curriculum are the goal of "global" corporations so they can turn American public schools into their cheap, standardized worker delivery system. If it is allowed to go forth, the United States will become the land of economic apartheid -- very much a land of the haves and the have-nots.
Posted by Sean Black on 05/10/2009 @ 08:21PM PT
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hey sean, do you think nationalized education standards could be safe and effective if they were strictly based on what is currently being called "evidence-based" curriculums? i am paranoid (and i think for good reason) about the movement for the nationalization of educational standards but am thinking that true adherence to "evidence-based" methods could work.
Posted by patrick smith on 05/11/2009 @ 09:30AM PT
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How do you know what is historically correct?
Posted by Adrian Stevens on 08/14/2009 @ 02:18PM PT
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Another example of the Religious Right and their indoctrination of Intolerance and Hate in the name of Jesus!!
When are we gonna get tired enough of fundamentalist trying to drag us back into the 40's and tell them enough is enough!
If the citizens of Texas allow this - then they need to secede! Good Riddance!
Posted by Who Knew? ... on 05/03/2009 @ 01:23PM PT
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To keep things in perspective, even if someone used "hate" in the name of Jesus; certainly you can differentiate the source and the fool. There was a time when the word "funfamental" was not the adjective it is today. There was only the Law. The only time theology is a problem is when it disagrees with what we have come to believe is appropriate conduct -- regardless of what we "feel" is right for us. Notwithstanding, it 's not about homosexuality exclusively; theologically it's about sin in general -- which, theologically speaking, we all do. Therefore, no one person has the right to judge another. That said, the so called conservative party has somehow become aligned with Judeo-Christian theology. Well, in case you didn't know, nothing could be further from the truth, period. Theology doesn't rape, kill, enslave, demoralize; and then go to church on Sunday. It's not the Church, it's the hypocrisy that's the problem.
I don't see how taking prayer out of the school system has helped us. Check out the stats.
Posted by Mark Mathias on 05/09/2009 @ 02:40PM PT
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In grade school they used to force me to stand for the lords prayer. I did not believe in the same superstition and refused to stand. I was disciplined and still refused. Kids beat me up, egged and toilet papered my house. How dare I not believe as they did. How has no prayer in school helped? No-one has to go through what I did. No-one has to have a bunch of hypocritical jerks forcing their beliefs down their throats. Turn the other cheek, do unto others, compassion, my eye. Religion does not determine what a person becomes. I have lived my life without ever hurting anyone because that is what is right and makes sense, not because the bible tells me so. I've never met people so arrogant as christians.
Posted by Timothy Odell on 05/11/2009 @ 10:01AM PT
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Mark,
you already had a good point without the last two sentences. Forcing someone to join in worship serves no Christian purpose, so what good does it do to force children to pray in school? Furthermore, have you been to a graduation benediction recently? It's the worst kind of nothing, because it is a non-religious worship of a non-god deity. It's worse than hearing a politician talk about all of the non-accomplishments he's accomplished. Bottom line is, regardless of the benefit to society, prayer in schools is unChristian because it forces worship out of unbelievers.
Timothy,
tell me about it. People who claim to be Christians can be some of the most arrogant, hypocritical, ignorant, morons some of the time. I'm sorry that you were treated with such disrespect. The problem with most of these types is that they don't care what their own religion teaches them. Some of these types of Christians are genuinely trying and simply haven't learned all of the teachings, yet, but most simply don't care what their religion teaches and are simply trying to use it as a weapon against people they don't like. Please don't believe that we are all like that, though. There are a large number of us that are caring, peaceful individuals that are just as mad at that vocal group of supposedly Christian people. And most of our time is spent trying to stop these... morons... and repair the damage they do.
Posted by Chris Meacham on 05/11/2009 @ 12:22PM PT
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Though a nationally standardized curricula sounds like a great idea, nothing more then a federal guideline is wise. The Fed is no less prone to religious nut-jobs as local government. I point to a certain Republican Congresswoman who can't seem to tell reality from her religiously induced delusions. I believe she made some comments about re-education camps.
I have friends from Texas, my wife and I had been considering moving there due to the property prices there. With all that has gone on recently in the Texas SBOE. That is off the table. I want my daughters education to be accepted when she goes to college.
Its a crime, but I suspect that if the current SBOE has its way with the rest of the states curricula. The rest of the countries Universities will be forcing Texas students into additional remedial education before they can get to real classes.
Though maybe that isn't a bad thing, it would put a really bright spot light on what happened durring this SBOE session and maybe force some real changes.
With today's prevalence and availability of information, the only way these religious loons can try to keep recruits is to dumb down their children and as many others as they can in the process.
Posted by Damon Ballard on 05/04/2009 @ 01:11AM PT
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Damon
I don't know where you got your information that these students would become "sub standard" and need to take remedial classes to catch them up with the system. If anyone would ever look up the average home school student or christian high school student going into a worldly college or university they score in the top 10 percent of SAT and ACT test takers. WHY? They have gotten a balanced education. This is not to say that all christian schools do this but the vast majority do.
Now myself I went to a Catholic school for the first 3 years of my wonderful education then I went to public schools from the 4th grade till my freshman year of college. I had to go to a JC for a semester and a half before I could even think about getting into Loyola Marymount University because I got such a poor eduction in public schools. Am I sorry about this? By no means at all I loved my education all of it, even though it took thirty years to finish because of work, family, kids, music, protesting, then becoming a pastor.
I have never been a stupid Christian nor have I ever ask people to keep their kids stupid, on the contrary, I have tried to get kids into Stanford and Berkley, and yes a few Bible schools but as a whole to be honest I have tried to keep them out of bible schools that aren't a good liberial arts school as well. So I agree there are those who try and dumb down the kids and keep them barefoot pregnant so to speak (that isn't just a christian thing though).So what if they put in a section on Christianity or religion what is one or two sections going to hurt? The same can be said by teaching about the GLB&T lifestyles there are a lot of people just like many of you who don't want that being taught either, do they have the same rights as you to say no as well as you? Yes.
There is no clear cut answer to this problem as well other than nobody gets their own way, just teach the true history leaving out any reference to religion or sexual preference, evolution or any other controversy there is. Now that would be a true education eradication.
Posted by Paul Amschler on 05/26/2009 @ 02:36PM PT
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Damon
I don't know where you got your information that these students would become "sub standard" and need to take remedial classes to catch them up with the system. If anyone would ever look up the average home school student or christian high school student going into a worldly college or university they score in the top 10 percent of SAT and ACT test takers. WHY? They have gotten a balanced education. This is not to say that all christian schools do this but the vast majority do.
Now myself I went to a Catholic school for the first 3 years of my wonderful education then I went to public schools from the 4th grade till my freshman year of college. I had to go to a JC for a semester and a half before I could even think about getting into Loyola Marymount University because I got such a poor eduction in public schools. Am I sorry about this? By no means at all I loved my education all of it, even though it took thirty years to finish because of work, family, kids, music, protesting, then becoming a pastor.
I have never been a stupid Christian nor have I ever ask people to keep their kids stupid, on the contrary, I have tried to get kids into Stanford and Berkley, and yes a few Bible schools but as a whole to be honest I have tried to keep them out of bible schools that aren't a good liberial arts school as well. So I agree there are those who try and dumb down the kids and keep them barefoot pregnant so to speak (that isn't just a christian thing though).So what if they put in a section on Christianity or religion what is one or two sections going to hurt? The same can be said by teaching about the GLB&T lifestyles there are a lot of people just like many of you who don't want that being taught either, do they have the same rights as you to say no as well as you? Yes.
There is no clear cut answer to this problem as well other than nobody gets their own way, just teach the true history leaving out any reference to religion or sexual preference, evolution or any other controversy there is. Now that would be a true education eradication.
Posted by Paul Amschler on 05/26/2009 @ 02:37PM PT
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You're right, Damon. There are people who believe in intrusive religions on the federal level also. The only real difference is that there is a bigger playing field.
I remember when someone in the Reagan administration wanted to classify ketchup as a vegetable in the school lunch program. Caused a hilarious flap nationwide (even among people who did not have chidren in public schools). And, of course, that was before most people had access to the internet.
Posted by C W on 05/04/2009 @ 05:19AM PT
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Eww!! I spent the first 18 years of my life in Texas and hated it. The school system just gets worse and worse and worse. At my school district, supposely the elementary school got better, while the middle and high schools have at this point crashed into a fissure. Speaking of backwards, last I heard they were reinstating an old rule so that boys couldn't have hair over their eyes or ears, but girls could. Presumably, this is in response to Shaggy Hair Syndrome.
Posted by Luella - on 05/06/2009 @ 10:49AM PT
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The USA was never intended to be a Christian nation or to have any other religious foundation. Among the founding fathers there were Deists, Agnostics and yes, Atheists. The Christians were largely Episcopalians, not the wear your religion on your sleeve I've been saved mealy mouthed Evangelists. Washington actually had a letter that was ratified by the Senate sent to the Bey of Tunis stating that the USA was not a Christian nation. I personally am sick of these fundamentalist Christians brain washing this nations children and taking advantage of people who have reached a low point in their lives. If these people had their way we would be living under a Christian Taliban. If they have their druthers the whole country would revert back to seventeenth century Massachusetts.
Posted by michael sawyer on 05/08/2009 @ 02:52PM PT
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Michael, can you lead me tp the Tunis letter? I'd like to hang it on my office wall, next to my picture of an "illegal" alien who was deported because he terminated his entry to help a young boy who's mother had died as a result of driving off the edge of a remote mountain road, ie waited for "authorities" to come and help the kid.
Posted by Bob Pomeroy on 05/09/2009 @ 09:20AM PT
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I thought George W. was a Texas anomoly but now I'm not so certain. The Muslim Taliban has it's Christian counterpart alright! These people are downright scary in my point of view. Are their lives so insular that they believe the stuff they're spouting?
Posted by Penny Hines on 05/10/2009 @ 01:03AM PT
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It really is scary sometimes how a group of people can twist some philanthropic teachings of an honest man into a rule set that somehow allows them to do things in direct contradiction of those teachings. What's worse is that people fall for this crap and become polarized either for or against it rather than working together as one people. This country was founded on freedom of all sorts, but most importantly the freedom to not be forced into another's code of morality.
Posted by Chris Meacham on 05/11/2009 @ 12:32PM PT
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As abominable as this situation is, one must consider that the Board of Education of Texas is a wing of the state government, and guess who elects the officials of the government? The people of Texas! So, in the final analysis, this is simply a sad statement on the people. This is not the first travesty I have seen come out of Texas. If they want to secede and retreat into the dark ages, I say, good riddance. We've got enough problems without having to worry about neanderthals.
Posted by William Davis on 05/08/2009 @ 03:12PM PT
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Where do we send comments to protest these phenomenal travesties and deceptions? Book burning is now anachronistic, since kids are being so propagandized, homogenized, brain-washed, indoctrinated, dumbed-down & intimidated in school & out that, if they do read (most have no interest or have been taught to hate learning and are anti-intellectual), they read only religious or right wing pablum in their little leisure time.
Posted by Robert Elliott on 05/08/2009 @ 03:18PM PT
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William, you have a good point. If Texas were to secede and became a Fundamentalist Christian nation, I wonder how long it would be before we would have an illegal immigration with them.
Posted by michael sawyer on 05/08/2009 @ 03:50PM PT
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Sorry guys I left out a key word,read illegal immigration problem.
Posted by michael sawyer on 05/08/2009 @ 03:53PM PT
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Let's end this Texas-centering of America! We got rid of Bush-think for awhile, now let's refuse to let a few zealots determine that our kids learn nothing but Flat Earth Geography in our public schools. I have no problem with have Flat Earth Geogrpahy or its analogs in other substantive area actually being taught in TEXAS, but I do hate the fact that Texas dictates the other normal states' text content due to its inordinately large market share. I guess every nation has its Swat Valley's and Helmond Province and Federally Administered Tribal Areas, not just Pakistan and Afghanistan!
Posted by Cal Hastings on 05/08/2009 @ 08:18PM PT
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I taught in Texas for 5 years and watched the rise of TAAS and NCLB, and all the while partially affected by the religious conservatism, bur more involved in the liberal side of life from the Austin perspective. I have often wondered how long it will take for good old boy-churchiness to go one step too far ... this might just be it. Seems to me that whether people are for prayer in school, intelligent design, or whatever, more and more Texans are becoming enlightened as to everyone really having the right to choose, but not be told by the state what is right and wrong or godly or ungodly. Is Texas truly in any real guiding position for the rest of the country? I don't think so.
Posted by Terry Smith on 05/08/2009 @ 08:33PM PT
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Interesting. Went through my schooling in San Antonio through my first year of high school. Granted this was 15 year ago. Granted that was a military city at the time so it's full of people from all ove the US, but the only Christian indoctrination I got was from an instructor that specifically told us it was his personal belief and not that of the school. I guess San Antonio really is different from the rest of the state...
I liked my social studies curriculum here in MI. In our World Cultures class, we had a quick coverage of the basic beliefs of the major current religions. boom. that's it. Religion is part of culture and so it should be taught from an anthropological perstpective.
Posted by Navidad Arnett on 05/08/2009 @ 09:02PM PT
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I live in Austin, and despite most of the rest of the state, I will put Austin up to any other city in the country. That being said, it seems that the Texas legislature is finally getting tired of all the controversy. The President of the Texas State Board of Education, while appointed by our dear Mr. Governor Blow-dry, must be approved by the legislature, and the legislature seems unlikely to do that this time around.
Posted by Craig Nazor on 05/08/2009 @ 10:26PM PT
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I'm boycotting TEXAS. No travel there, no money to Texas Oil companies. Limited communication only. Are there no more sane people in Texas now that Molly Ivans is gone? Perhaps, the sane should just get out now, and we can wall off the whole state. Just think if Mexico would invade, and we could trade them the idea of evolution for a Swine flu vaccine.
Posted by Michael E. Russell on 05/08/2009 @ 11:07PM PT
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There are a lot of us sane folks here in Texas (see 'blue' areas during the Obama election) but not enough to overcome the insane majority. Maybe you should make room for us to immigrate into the USA when Texas secedes. We're an asset. We've got brains.
Posted by Tyger Schonholzer on 05/09/2009 @ 06:18AM PT
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This bothers me on so many levels: primarily as a future educator, and as a tolerant loving person who sees the danger in marginalizing the minority.
I have never lived in Texas, so it's a bit beyond me how a state could be so backward in its education. I live in Maine, and while we certainly have some conservative extremists up here, they are hardly the majority and they do not hold any power to speak of (other than their guns.) Most people here are moderate to liberal and they tend to keep their opinions to themselves.
What concerns me more than the founding of our nation, is this business about God taking revenge on our nation through natural disasters. Particularly the part about it being because of homosexuality. First of all, God hasn't been vengeful since the old testament, he's a god of love now. Secondly... seriously? People legitimately believe that?!
Well Maine just passesd a law legalizing same sex marriage (YAY!) so I'll keep you guys posted on any wrathful weather patterns we might have.
Posted by Chandra Cooper on 05/09/2009 @ 06:27AM PT
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In a country where there has been an amendment from day 1 that says we have religious freedom something like this is completely unacceptable. Just because it's what these very few fundamentalists believe doesn't make it fact, and if they put this in schools it can't even be considered an education. Maybe a brainwashing... Divine punishment because of toleration???? Completely absurd I just hope homosexuals can get married and we can get on with more important issues.
Posted by William Kauffman on 05/09/2009 @ 07:07AM PT
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So, they're goal is to teach children fanciful tales of magic and mythology (not to mention intolerance and divisiveness) and call it hard science and social studies... and expect these same children to survive, much less thrive, in a global economy? It is time for all of us to come out of the closet and talk to our family, friends, co-workers, continuing the dialogue on the damaging affects of religious fundi-literalist.
Posted by Paulino Valenzuela on 05/09/2009 @ 07:26AM PT
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There is no such a thing as value free education, is either leftist or rightist, but apperenlty left means good right means bad. If we want to ban realigion lest ban Greek myhtology adn their Gods, Aztecs and their Gods, oh and the environmental radicals and their God, mother earth.
Posted by laura Gonzalez on 05/11/2009 @ 09:52AM PT
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There is no such a thing as value free education, is either leftist or rightist, but apperenlty left means good right means bad. If we want to ban realigion lest ban Greek myhtology adn their Gods, Aztecs and their Gods, oh and the environmental radicals and their God, mother earth.
Posted by laura Gonzalez on 05/11/2009 @ 09:52AM PT
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Laura Gonzalez
There is free education.. its called free thinking abilities, something you lack of. Christian and their fundie zombies rather people be like them dumb and brainwashed.
Mother earth is the planet you live on, if you don't like her, but hate her cause of your bloody religion, then please take the first space ship out too Uranus... since Jesus is waiting for you there.
Posted by Lara Nunes on 05/11/2009 @ 10:12AM PT
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Lara
First of all, Laura has a valid point. All religions should have equal, factual coverage in a social studies class. It's a class which is intended to teach facts _about_ and _study_ of culture, which includes religions, both current and extinct. The religions should not be taught, but taught **about.**
Secondly, only someone who has no valid argument resorts to personal attacks. It is a detriment to any valid arguments that you do have, and polarizes those who are listening against you regardless of their agreement with you. Please refrain from personal attacks, at least if you want to actually persuade your opponent to agree with you. If your purpose is just to make you feel better about your beliefs, it really doesn't help much there either.
Posted by Chris Meacham on 05/11/2009 @ 12:48PM PT
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Ah there's that entity trying to gain the upper hand.
That trained mentality to poke at any seeming soft spot to then attack again.
Such is the demonic depravity of chrispy christianity to call a foul when in fact the mere existance of evil edict is a foul against humanity.
I see the repitition of the phrase, the exposing of the agenda.
We free , sexually joyous human animals are attacked by your mentally depraved and degenerative hateful religion daily.
And worse yet, the mental abuse heeped upon children is beyond depravity.
So if you would like to help the arguement, admit the lies of your religion, there is no god, only the disgusting designs of the depraved imaginations of those who abuse others while professiing divinity.
I see you now, and i hear clearly your satanic message.
Give my best to Lara Nunes, Lara uses facts.
Ta ta, chris
Frederic Starchenkovenner
Posted by Frederic Starchenkov... on 05/11/2009 @ 03:01PM PT
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I guess I don't understand how insulting someone and making up things about another's religion are facts. Please Frederic, enlighten me. When was Jesus proven to be on Uranus? When did Christ teach to hate the planet, something Christians consider to be a gift from God, which many daily fight to preserve and protect from those that would pollute and destroy it? When did Christ or his apostles discourage free thinking or education?
Posted by Chris Meacham on 05/11/2009 @ 03:50PM PT
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Gather up your story books, gather up your facts.
Would you tell me about December 25th and who was Mary Magdalene?
And who was John the Baptist and who was chosen to take his place?
Any place to begin a fairtale is as good as another.
Your enlightenment may be coming.
Frederic starchenkovenner
Posted by Frederic Starchenkov... on 05/11/2009 @ 04:08PM PT
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Chris asked" when was Jesus from Uranus"....When Jesus stated he was not from THIS WORLD.. called Earth.
Uranus is a planet in the universe, it was nothing about an attack, like you try to claim it too be.Xian loves to make themselves look like victims, when its the non believers who are procequed by the xians.
When did Christ teach to hate the planet ?
Christ will return to Earth and complete the final act of man's redemption (2 Peter 3:9-10). He will destroy this present universe and create a new heavens and Earth (2 Peter 3:7,10; Revelations 21:1). All the stars and planets will be destroyed, along with the Earth.
When did Christ or his apostles discourage free thinking or education?
Did Jesus write the Bible ?NOPE.. But clergyman and monks did.
Teachers of philosophy give their lives to examining convictions by which people can live, in order to develop a consistent worldview and way of life based on reliable evidence. The Bible warns against philosophies whose highest realities and concerns are atoms, energy, cosmic laws—or even humanity—those founded on the basic principles of the world and not according to Christ.
Walvoord, J. F., Zuck, R. B., & Dallas Theological Seminary. (1983-c1985). The Bible knowledge commentary : An exposition of the scriptures (2:677). Wheaton, IL: Victor Books.
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. (Colossians 2:8)
Posted by Lara Nunes on 05/11/2009 @ 05:42PM PT
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Christmas is still pagan & celebrated long before anyone there had heard of Jesus Christ.
http://www.essortment.com/all/christmaspagan_rece.htm
Posted by Lara Nunes on 05/11/2009 @ 06:58PM PT
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You’re right... I agree that religion should be covered in the public school curriculum. Religion should be taught as History, Social and World Religion studies, although should not extend any further than that.
Posted by Paulino Valenzuela on 05/12/2009 @ 06:53AM PT
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"Christmas is still pagan & celebrated long before anyone there had heard of Jesus Christ."... This is true as many of the seemingly Christian originated themes are taken from much older societies and past religions we now refer to as mythology. The virgin birth, the rising from the dead, the ability to supernaturally heal, the miracle working are all reoccurring themes throughout ancient storytelling.
Posted by Paulino Valenzuela on 05/12/2009 @ 07:13AM PT
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It is incredible that the religious right can spew such hatred, and now that their pawns can attempt to incorporate religious hatred into the textbooks. How vile.
Posted by James Kadlec on 05/09/2009 @ 07:34AM PT
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It is incredible that the religious right can spew such hatred, and now that their pawns can attempt to incorporate religious hatred into the textbooks. How vile.
Posted by James Kadlec on 05/09/2009 @ 07:34AM PT
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I think an argument can be made that the effusion of private "religious" schools in the Bible Belt in reaction to public school integration in the 60's directly led to a generation of misled zealots who installed this abhorent neocon political philosophy into our body politic. The "religious" aspect of this movement was clearly a subterfuge at the time, and of the utmost hypocrisy. Behold its fruits. It has thoroughly discredited itself and damaged our nation. But clearly this is an expression of a false religion abused and warped by its adherants into something which must so infuriate Deity as to result in Katrina, wildfires, etc., rather than the other way round. Using God's name in vain to impose one's will on others is not likely to accomplish a beneficial result. Amen
Posted by Bob Pomeroy on 05/09/2009 @ 08:07AM PT
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I realize there is a "Like" link, but this comment by Bob deserves a hearty
"Hear! Hear!"
Posted by Chris Meacham on 05/11/2009 @ 12:52PM PT
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We were founded as a Christian nation and that is easily seen by anyone who cares to look at our history. As far as the religious right spewing hatred I see a lot more intolerance and hate reflected in many of these posts than I have heard from the aforementioned. Creationism is not a purely Christian view. Speaking of myths and magic I can only assume you refer to the fanciful religion of evolution, a theory disproven repeatedly yet still clung to by the Sainted intelligentsia. You wannabe dictators should stay out of Texas. Those people are serious and they believe in States rights. It's amusing to read all this smug contempt for a group that is not a minority in Texas and will not be cowed by secular elitism.
Posted by James Thompson on 05/09/2009 @ 08:29AM PT
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We as a nation were clearly founded as NONSECULAR, for anyone who cares to look. The Constitution specifically states that Congress shall make NO law regarding the establishment of a religion.
Your notion of history is clearly 'revisionist' and is in dire need of some facts.
Posted by Marlon Woodward on 05/09/2009 @ 01:11PM PT
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I'm temped to call "Poe" on that post, but the unfortunate reality is that there are people that just don't get it and get their information from the pulpit, not from their own research.
From the statement above, it's unlikely the writer is going to change him mind any time soon, he must cling to his beliefs in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. If he did not, he would be forced to admit that he's the intolerant one, and that his life and everything he's been brought up to believe are outright bold face lies.
In many cases, people cling to such lies and untruths because it's what their parents taught them and they aren't willing to admit that mommy and daddy could be wrong.
Also,
To any Mom's out there. Happy Mom's Day.
Posted by Damon Ballard on 05/09/2009 @ 01:56PM PT
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Where to start with this one?
1. "We were founded as a Christian nation and that is easily seen by anyone who cares to look at our history."
- Shouldn't have gone there. People who know how to read can actually read our history and learn that no less a statesman than Benjamin Franklin openly doubted the deity of Jesus only weeks before his death. And, those of us who can read also know about the seperation of church and state which is enshrined in our constitution.
2. "Speaking of myths and magic I can only assume you refer to the fanciful religion of evolution, a theory disproven repeatedly yet still clung to by the Sainted intelligentsia."
- Actually, it's a Scientific Theory, not a religion. There are no churches of Evolution. There is no one or deity which it's adherents pray to. And, for those (like you?) who think that a scientific theory is some kind of guess, know ye that no scientific theory can stand unless it makes accurate predictions about the future and is testable and provable and verifiable (three things that religion is NOT). That said, which part of the theory of evolution is 'disproven repeatedly'?
3. "You wannabe dictators should stay out of Texas."
- Like George W? (HA HA HA HA!!!!)
Posted by Anthony Wilson on 05/11/2009 @ 09:39AM PT
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Ophelia,
Please tell me that you don't consider your statements an "argument" or the act of "debating." Insults are not an effective tool of debate, and they often accomplish the express opposite of persuasion.
James,
This country was founded on religious freedom. A slim majority of the founders were not Christians, but attended various Christian denominations' worship services simply out of a respect for the popularity of the act. Most were deists. A few were atheists. The reason it was founded on religious freedom was because people claiming to be Christians were forcing their beliefs on others back in England within the lifetimes of the founders.
As to evolution? Eh. Theories change over time. Evolution is the current popular theory. In the 1400s it was spontaneous generation. In the 1300s the world was thought to be flat. Popular science changes as new evidence is found. Some may have religious devotion to a particular theory, but a majority are willing to consider other ideas... with evidence. Be patient.
I agree with Anthony. It is hard to take a statement like "You wannabe dictators should stay out of Texas," when a wannabe dictator like W came from that state.
Damon,
As a Christian, I honestly wish I could disagree with what you've said, but, as a Christian, I've seen a lot of that first hand.
Anthony,
I would disagree that separation of church and state is enshrined in our Constitution. At least, to the extent that it is taken today. The Establishment Clause, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," is as close as it gets, and even it does not require that worship not be conducted in government facilities or vice versa. It only says that Congress cannot pass a law that respects (to show regard or consideration for) an establishment of religion, such as the Catholic Church, the Baptist Convention, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, etc. It does, however, unequivocally say that a law cannot be passed which prohibits one to worship as they deem fit, so long as the other constitutionally endowed freedoms are not limited in the process. For example, prayer in schools would be perfectly legal, so long as the school does not organize, mandate, or restrict it in any way more than preventing conflicts with the regular process of education.
On Evolutionary "religion," while I agree that it is the evolutionary theory is a scientific theory, you cannot deny that there are a great number of people that have a level of belief in evolution without understanding or want to understand that is equivalent to a religious faith. Perhaps there aren't people out there worshiping speciation or Darwin, or there aren't people out there killing unbelievers, but they still have faith rather than knowledge, and act with equivalent stupidity on occasion.
Posted by Chris Meacham on 05/11/2009 @ 01:29PM PT
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Finally someone had the eggs to say the truth against the bigoted hate filled anti religious left that seems to have populated this post.
These people keep claiming seperation of church and state and claim it is in the US Constitution and are willing to die for it, well I wonder what they would do if they were lined up against the wall and told recant or die on the count of three? Why it isn't there.
For many years I have fought the way the supposed well meaning christians went out and tried to sell their brand of belief and then passing it on. I have seen so much abuse in the name of religion and christianity that I almost drove myself nuts.
YES, I am one of those so called christians everyone here seems to hate, and that is ok I am not going to try and debate you or tell you you're wrong that is not my job. If you had come to my church then you would have given me permission to do so but even then that isn't my job and I wouldn't want it.
If people would do some real home work before they spew the fear like they are doing here they would have found out that many home schooled kids have made it very well in the so called "world" and live very productive lives. I even think the new VP had a religious education in his early years what's wrong with him? Yes there are problems in EVERY system but instead of complaining why not really get involved in the process? Get involved join the school board and do something proactive instead of complaining. It is one thing to sit in the back and complain and bitch and moan and another to get your hands dirty.
Posted by Paul Amschler on 05/13/2009 @ 06:59PM PT
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Did you notice the organization from which Mr. Burell got his information? It’s name shows that it is an organization motivated by hate. As a result, how trustworthy is its information? Are they above shading their message, i.e. twisting the truth, for impact, as is typical of hate groups? As a result, how is Mr. Burell’s article not a hate hit piece? As well as many of the comments that follow?
When I visit public schools, I’m often appalled at the low quality of education as well as the inability of students for critical thought. This failure can be laid directly at the feet of the NEA, known for its hard left ideology. But students usually can parrot the politically correct pabulum indoctrinated by their teachers.
In contrast, homeschooled students, most of whom are religiously motivated, and church schools as a group usually excel, in all academic areas.
By their own record, much of the opposition to public education is a complaint against the low standards of education found in public schools. Further, it is recognized that one of the reasons for the low standards is a desire to indoctrinate students to a particular ideology, such as the rewriting of history to omit politically incorrect events. How is it not an act of hate to wish to exclude certain people, whose own record shows they have a high regard for quality education, from having an influence in public education, merely because of their creed?
Posted by Richard Ortiz on 05/09/2009 @ 08:39AM PT
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Richard states:
"In contrast, homeschooled students, most of whom are religiously motivated, and church schools as a group usually excel, in all academic areas."
He is right. But please consider another factor. Parents of the homeschooled spend time on educating their children. Parents of children in religious schools spend money (and lots of it) on educating their children. The parents of these groups are involved in their children's education.
Back in the day, good results were achieved in the public schools when parents became involved in the neighborhood school. Now, at least in many big cities, the neighborhood public school is gone.
Posted by C W on 05/09/2009 @ 09:04AM PT
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Religion is EVIL. Religion is the reason for all wars, ethnic divisions and suffering in the world. Remember the Maya, the Inca, the Aztec, the Crusades and the Inquisition?
All these and MORE are the result of the evils of delusional religious folk. We are star-children and the big thermal nuclear ball in the sky is the giver of life on our planet. Humans evolved through evolution by natural selection, PERIOD!
All these evil religious folk are delusional, but heck, we are in the USA, and stupid people have a right to believe in a MASS DELUSION!
Dr. Thomas Parker
Posted by Thomas Parker on 05/09/2009 @ 09:09AM PT
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Thomas,
Interesting. So let me get this straight:
Some guy in the middle east teaches to love your enemies and do good to those who hurt you and do unto others as you would have them do unto you, some other guy in the far east teaches to be at peace with one's fellow man and one's surroundings, some other guy in the middle east says that one who rapes a woman is evil and that children should be protected... and you call these people evil starters of wars?
I think this calls for a quote from Gene Roddenberry through William Shatner:
"I'm laughing at the ‘superior intellect,' Khan."
Posted by Chris Meacham on 05/11/2009 @ 01:46PM PT
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Read the Declaration Of Independence and the Constitution. The founders were concerned with ensuring that everyone had the freedom to exercise their own faith.
Education, in my opinion should be broad enough to introduce the students to all faiths and points of view with the objective of teaching analytical thinking. The main problem with education today is that students have been force fed information without teaching them to THINK!
If a person learns to think and analyze information the idiots have nearly as much control.
Posted by Jane Scroggins on 05/09/2009 @ 09:20AM PT
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The teaching about religion should only ever be part of a sociology class or a religion class where there is a discussion about Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Tao, Judaism, and others from a cultural standpoint. Religion has no place in Science Class and no place in social studies where you are to learn about government and how it works. That is accept if you are going to deal with how Religion poisons government and the evils of Theocracy.
Posted by Damon Ballard on 05/09/2009 @ 02:01PM PT
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Thank you Jane, I don't think anyone could have said it better!
Posted by Jonathan Cates on 05/09/2009 @ 07:34PM PT
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Its worth looking up THE GOD DELUSION by Richard Dawkins c.2006... "A preeminent scientist – and the world’s most prominent atheist – asserts the irrationality of belief in God and the grievous harm religion has inflicted on society, from the Crusades to 9/11.” Richard makes his case in chapter 9 regarding the indoctrination of children into religion as a form of mental abuse and that can become physically abusive as well.
Posted by Paulino Valenzuela on 05/09/2009 @ 09:27AM PT
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Paulino,
Your right Dawkins is a preeminent atheist I listened to a few of his interviews and found him interesting yet when asked a direct question about the primordial ooze he didn't have a good direct answer as do no other evolutionists.
I think of one that stands out blaring golden trumpets that is the use of indoctrination of childern into religion as a form of mental and then possibally physical abuse. There is are NO figures on this happening on a regular basis except in extreme clults that are so off in the darkest reaches of the weirdness meter that they have no place at all in a intelgent talk.
I have had the operitunity to work with a lot of people coming out of these cults as well as the cult of evolution. Yes I call it a cult because it has NEVER been proven down to the base eliment just like faith in the Bible we have to trust, yet there is more information proving the Bible than the evoloutionary proccess.
Now back to the topic at hand what harm is it to have a history book that teachs that every treaty between the whites and the Native Americans was broken by the whites? What is wrong with stating the fact that one US general and President told the troup fighting these "RED" devils to not waste their bullets on them but wait till you have them and then beat them to death with your rifle butts, and when that didn't work THEN the US Government turned the RED devils over to the religious people to be worked over? What happened to the church/state issue there? I wonder why there was no out cry at that point for a new text book? Why for the first 150 years the Bible was the excepted TEXT book for ENGLISH and other studies?
Just a few questions?
Posted by Paul Amschler on 05/30/2009 @ 03:13PM PT
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Boy please forgive me for doing what I hate about others doing and NOT spell checking on my last post. Pain med's for a shoulder injury and typing with one hand right now just don't go together.
Posted by Paul Amschler on 05/30/2009 @ 03:22PM PT
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ever look on a dollar bill? Notice it says In God We Trust. We were founded as a christain nation. Its about time we went back to it.
Posted by margaret Cole on 05/09/2009 @ 09:59AM PT
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The dollar bill only started carrying that mtto on Oct 1st, 1957. If the contry was founded in 1957, I'd say you have a point. But your only point is on the top of your little head, holding that little brain.
Posted by lex medved on 05/09/2009 @ 10:32AM PT
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Your comment about "In God We Trust" is NOT exclusive to Christianity. A belief in Jesus Christ as Savior is exclusive to Christianity. A belief in a God/Creator in fundamental to Jews and Muslims as well as Christians; and, before you argue that Muslims believe in Allah, let me paraphrase Shakespeare: "A rose (God) by any other name is still a rose." In fact, early immigrants to the U.S. (i.e. the Pilgrims) fled state-established religions which persecuted people who did not agree or abide by state-established religions and our founding fathers were keenly aware of the enmity and bloodshed that this historical fact claims. Our Statue of Liberty welcomes the "huddled masses yearning to breathe free" and makes no mention of "Christians only and exclusively."
Posted by Penny Hines on 05/10/2009 @ 01:26AM PT
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"In God we trust." Yes, it does say that--a hangover that we should get rid of. But tell us please, how does that phrase make us a "Christian" anything? You have to be pretty supid and/or monumentally egocentric to "believe that "God" is strictly a Christian concept. You must have been educated" in Texas my dear.
Posted by Carla K on 05/10/2009 @ 02:46AM PT
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When will you fundamentalists get it right? Our dollar bill, which you hold up to the bright light of our founding as a nation did not add the words "In God we Trust" until April 22, 1864.
From the Department of the Treasury website:
The Congress passed the Act of April 22, 1864. This legislation changed the composition of the one-cent coin and authorized the minting of the two-cent coin. The Mint Director was directed to develop the designs for these coins for final approval of the Secretary. IN GOD WE TRUST first appeared on the 1864 two-cent coin.
Now Margaret, please forget you ever saw this so you can retreat once again to your private world where everything hateful is the fault of the atheists and all things fundamentalist are pure.
Cheers!!
Posted by Anthony Wilson on 05/11/2009 @ 09:58AM PT
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James Thompson mentions in his comment "looking at history",
what history has he been looking at? James like so many of his kind believes what he wants to believe, not facts. Let's look at the basis of his religion the Bible. In the Old Testament there are many outlandish examples of mythology being sold as truth; like Noah's Ark. Here we have a vessel 450 x 75 x 45 feet in which God commanded that Noah load up "two of everything living, male and female". A modern supertanker could not hold all these creatures along with fodder for the herbivores, enough surplus herbivores to feed the carnivores, Noah and his family and enough supplies for a 7 month cruise.
Let's look at the New Testament: The virgin conception, funny how a similar story appears in religions that existed centuries before Christianity such as ancient Egypt, Assyria and Hinduism. Then you have the hypocrisy's: It's OK for Christians to have lots of money even if they make it selling religion. Matthew 20: 16-24, Mark: 10: 17-27 and Luke 18: 18-27 all tell the story of the rich young ruler who asked Jesus how he could get into the kingdom of heaven. He was told to take all he had and give it to the poor. When he had left Jesus turned to his disciples and said: "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven". Fundamentalist Christians do not even preach their religion correctly, let alone practice what they preach.
Then we come to the great myth that the United States was founded on Christianity; A treaty with Tripoli in 1797 stated that "The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion". This document was initiated by George Washington, completed by John Adams and ratified by the Senate. Now James, if you bothered to look at history you would have known this!
God did not create religions, men invent religions so that they can claim that they know what God thinks and requires, How more arrogant can you get?
Posted by michael sawyer on 05/09/2009 @ 10:13AM PT
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Talk about revisionism, Article 11 in all probability never existed, Adams signed the treaty, Washington had no part in it. I am surprised that Clay would allow this to digress into a hate filled attack on Christianity. Babbel on you haters of all things religious. Texas will win. Babbel on.
Posted by James Thompson on 05/09/2009 @ 03:30PM PT
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James Thompson
The article 11 in the Treaty of Tripoli does exist, then again most bible thumping fools can't read a book unless it is a bible.
That is why their IQ level is 60, since they cant compete with the rest of the people whose IQ is higher then 100. So they need to corrupt our public school system with their garbage from that book called idiocy.
Treaty of Tripoli 1797
http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/treatytripoli.htm
Posted by Lara Nunes on 05/09/2009 @ 03:48PM PT
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Michael Sawyer, to answer you question below:
"God did not create religions, men invent religions so that they can claim that they know what God thinks and requires, How more arrogant can you get?"
You, Michael Sawyer,
have achieved that extra rung on the ladder of arrogance with the presumption that such a dictator as a god could even exist.
My question might be how small, abusive, depraved, and degenerative can religions such as christianity sink to to destroy the lives of children who deserve imagination, creativity, empowerment, and freedom ....
So you have achieved your own selffullfilling prophesy. You are more arrogant than the postulate that you posed.
There is no god, only dictatorship of your own enslavement.
The best and most effective jail has only three walls, no ceiling, no back wall , and yet the prisoner will never leave. Your jail cell has only a door knob with no walls or door to hang even on.
May you someday be free and empower yourself to be free of any imagined god entity.
From a fellow human animal,
wishing you freedom through education,
Frederic Starchenkovenner
Posted by Frederic Starchenkov... on 05/13/2009 @ 03:31AM PT
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Frederic,
I must correct you on a point (though I have agreed with nearly all your postings -occasional misspellings and grammar errors aside).
Religions have historically been created as a means to control the masses - give the poor ignorant sheeple a reason to "be good".
Appearing to be learned and wise was a bonus.
Posted by Timothy Odell on 05/14/2009 @ 08:26AM PT
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Mike you have a couple of good points in your comments and I would like to commend you on seeing them. And then correct you on a few others if you are up to correction or not and think that you are 100% inlightened.
You are correct about the Treaty of Tripoli does exsist and it does say that the US was not founded on religion. We weren't founded on a religion but a belief system and a system of faith. Now before anyone jumps on their favorite speeding horse and starts yelling the wackos are coming the wackos are coming better look at the words and how they are presented in KING JAMES English.
Now lets degress a bit in history long before the radification of our Consitution we were founded on Christian principles, but at time treaty not wanting the Muslims to be reassured that there would not be a religious holy war at any time in the future. But what
Posted by Paul Amschler on 05/30/2009 @ 04:45PM PT
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Science is constantly changing while the Bible remains the same and is the divine word of the Creator. If people would study the Word of the Creator as much as they study the theories of man, life would be much less confusing.
Posted by Mickey Theade on 05/09/2009 @ 10:45AM PT
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Science is constantly changing....... Now there's an earth shatteriing thought.
Imagine a world where evolution of THOUGHT changes the very way the human animal perceives lifes. Imagination, freedom, exploration, progress.... Yes sireeeee, when we could all be livin in the divine encased imagination of encrusted goss-spells of twisted reality weaved together by frustated dictors. Gooollyyy.
Imagine a world where change happens. Makes ya want to leave the country don it.
Posted by Frederic Starchenkov... on 05/09/2009 @ 01:26PM PT
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It's this simple: America was founded on the principle of religious freedom, indeed freedom from religion, hence the separation of church and state. Religious imposition by the state gave people the courage to sail across the ocean to America. Freedom from religion is as much a cornerstone of our liberty as freedom of religion.
Religious leaders were never intended to govern here. Churches enjoy a tax exempt status here by virtue of their non representation in government. This arrangement is consistently side-stepped, subverted, and stepped on by the closed-minded religious extremists of the right. Reverends, pastors, preachers, deacons, rabbis, elders, and their ilk have no business opening their mouths on a political issue at all. Church is church and state is state and never the twain shall meet.
It is time we strengthened rules governing this type of imposition. Shut up or we take your tax-exempt status away. You can't have it both ways. I for one think we could use billions in extra tax revenues.
Posted by Timothy Odell on 05/09/2009 @ 11:20AM PT
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It's called "freedom of religion", not freedom from religion. Pilgrims didn't all come over here to escape religion, they came over here to have the freedom to choose there religion.
The problem is that if government is going to have public education then it has to deal with the religion issue. It can't be seperated as long as non religious views are taught. People have the right to decide what there children are taught if they're paying taxes for public education.
Right or wrong, religious people often view scientific viewpoint such as evolution as a religion. Meaning that it takes faith.
Posted by Brian Fort on 05/09/2009 @ 10:45PM PT
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Ah, Brian, but it is freedom from religion.
The Age of Enlightenment brought reason to the forefront for FREEDOM FOM RELIGION.
A good read back at the movement reveals freedom form religion.
And the passage you ellude to does include those who believe in the supreme power of the human animal, imagination, creativity, and freedom.
The disinformation may not be your doing, but it is the vise of the christian cult mantra.
We all have a human right to be free from religion and it is written in our fore father's huiman animal design.
Nice try though,
Frederic Starchenkovenner
Posted by Frederic Starchenkov... on 05/10/2009 @ 04:58AM PT
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Yes, the pilgrams DID come here to escape a forced religion imposed by the King and the State. Read your history books kid.
Posted by Timothy Odell on 05/12/2009 @ 08:47PM PT
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Timothy
Well lets see, what about the millions of Native americans whose own religion freedom was taken away through genocide and displacement of living in the same ideas as others. The Native Americans were here first not the colonists who invaded this country.
I think churches who stick their noises in peoples personal lives and spew hated bible quotes to justified their reasons to kill and create wars, should loose their tax exempt.
Another thing Religion Fundies are stationed in both Republican and Democratic side. Since both sides believe in their version of freedom.
If Church and church and state and state shouldnt combine as one, then church people needs to keep their bible thoughts out of public education. Since, the bible has always been against education in the first place.
Posted by Lara Nunes on 05/09/2009 @ 11:36AM PT
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Um, I think that's what I said !?
Posted by Timothy Odell on 05/11/2009 @ 10:13AM PT
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My Apoligy Timothy
Have a Great day
Posted by Lara Nunes on 05/14/2009 @ 12:24PM PT
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Our Government was founded on the freedom of religion principles by Very religious men. The problem is they were mostly Freemasons who are Luciferians. Satan loves pain and death and hatred and everything evil. It is to bad that all this hatred that you all claim Bible Fundamentalists have for the world is really the Hatred of Satanic Fundamentalists. Condemnation without investigation is Satan's greatest tool. Deception is his greatest Ally. Do not be deceived by our civil servants that love war, hate and lies. They do not worship Jesus. They are from Secret Societies and are liars that worship Satan. Examples: Freemasons, Bilderbergers, Trilateral Commission and The Church of Satan. Their motto is from Aleister Crowley, the icon of Satanic Worship, "DO AS THY WILT". This means anything goes, there are NO RULES. This explains our current government perfectly.
The religion that are leaders use is not of Jesus but of Lucifer.
This is why our World is dying. Do not be deceived, out time is short. May Yahweh bless You as He has me.
Posted by Mickey Theade on 05/09/2009 @ 12:16PM PT
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Wow, you're neck deep in la-la land, aren't you? Freemasons are Luciferians? Let's just say that ludicrous, unfounded statement is true. Every president (except this one) has been a mason. So we are then in fact a Luciferian nation.
Oh, and Yahweh didn't bless you. It was the lucky penny in your pocket. No wait, it was the salt you threw over your shoulder, or the rabbits foot, or the horse shoe. Superstition is the true opiate of the masses because religion is just another unfounded, unproven, unbelievably moronic superstition.
Posted by Timothy Odell on 05/11/2009 @ 10:24AM PT
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What a ridiculous brouhaha! An argument that was absolutely manufactured. It is the result of the decimation of meaning of the 1st Amendment. An amendment when not parsed, served our country admirably for of 200 years. Bush's creation of the "Faith Based Initiative" opened Pandora's box.
As a result we are exposed to arguments like, [All students of home schooling are better educated than those students from public schools.] Declarative statements made without listing sources or demographics or studies without accepted experimental protocols or any empirical evidence that backs-up the claim.
What metrics are employed to judge success or failure. Is the education judged successful if the student has read the Bible from cover to cover several times and can quote from memory selected passages of the New Testament as proof his/her testimony of the truthfulness of the gospel is unshakable and unquestioned?
Do these home schooled student have real insight and understanding of the eschatology of Christ - his mission, his teachings and his sacrifice? Or has the student been corrupted by sectarian blindness?
Has the student every been school in the Religious reformation? Have they read books such as: "The Reformation, A History" written by accomplished scholars and historians such as, Diarmaid MacCulloch; or The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire by Edward Gibbon?
Posted by Sterling Weaver on 05/09/2009 @ 12:53PM PT
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Mickey
I am so sorry you are incorrect, The founding fathers were not Lucifertians. They were Freemasons, read some actual history on the freemasons.Motto of the freemasons motto, "Aude, Vide, Tace" - "Hear, see and be silent".
http://www.themasonictrowel.com/freemasonry.htm
Satan loves pain and death and hatered and everything evil ?
well damn that sums up the christian religion. Since if you knew their history of how they have used their religion to justified death on others who are non believers,causing pain in torture, the hatered theysprew for people who are GLBT ,african americans, and anyone they believe is a threat and the evilness of the book they read called the bible.
Jesus was a jewish person, he was not a Christian and if you read your bible correctly Jesus didnt support people who acts like the Pharisses of his time, he called them hypocritics and the children of Satan...
“Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: ‘This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me.’”
— Jesus Christ, Mark 7:6
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense, make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.”
— Jesus Christ, Matthew 23: 14-15
So the Pharisees, Jesus said, were the rich and the powerful and righteous who ignored the most important moral values that should guide everyone: the values of justice and mercy and faith. They were fools and foolers, and those who followed them were blinded by their own piety.
but of coarse you dont read your bible you actually lip service verses your preacher dictate to you every wednesday and Sunday. The very same Pharisess which condemn him to death the very same which most christian fundies support.
Another thing Mickey, Lucifer in the OT is the morning star and in the NT Jesus was also called the morning star. meaning they are one in the same.
Peace
Posted by Lara Nunes on 05/09/2009 @ 01:12PM PT
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Mr. Gibbon,
If you would do your homework you would know the Bush Family is a bunch of lying Luciferians. He lied about his Christian Religion and he still needed to steal the Elections to get into office. Go to Youtube.com and search for:Bush Satanic Sign, Here you will find many videos of him and his family members give the Satanic Hand Sign. Bush's Faith Base is completely Satanic.
Further more on the average Home Schooled kids get better grades than public schooled children. As long as our schools are run by a bunch of lying politicians that will remain the true. Your condemnation without investigation is exactly what they want. We used to be the number one ranked school system in the World, we are now #34. That ranks us with 3rd world countries. You have played into their lies.
The Bush's attend The Bohemian Grove where they worship a Giant Pagan Owl. He is also a member (as is his father and grandfather) of The Skull and Bones at Yale University. The Bush's are Satan followers not followers of the Creator Yahweh. Google any of these terms. The truth is everywhere, we just have to search more to find it.
The Bush's Faith Base is that of Satan not Yahweh. He lies. Do not believe anything he says. Most politicians are liars.
Once you understand that, you can CHANGE for the truth.
Posted by Mickey Theade on 05/09/2009 @ 01:31PM PT
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Come on now Laura,
You have been deceived by their lies. You make statements without facts. I know many Freemasons and they flat will tell you that the worship Lucifer. You need to break out of the Luciferian Paradigm that effects most of America. A good place to learn the correct meaning of the Bible is at http://www.khouse.org/topical_bible_study/ it is free. This site will not charge you like our government does. What is a little truth going to hurt. Your eternity is a long time. Spend your time on this rock well.
Posted by Mickey Theade on 05/09/2009 @ 01:45PM PT
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Mikey
I was a christian a long time ago,but I was awakened and knows your fables are nothing but lies. I would rather the bible be abolished as hate speech... that way the rest of us good people can live in peace.
Posted by Lara Nunes on 05/09/2009 @ 02:20PM PT
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I believe you are lying Mickey, that you know freemasons. And if I'm wrong and they told you they were Luciferions I'm sure they were playing with your gullible little mind. Freemasonry is not a religion.
Posted by Timothy Odell on 05/14/2009 @ 08:44AM PT
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While I agree with Timothy O'Dell in essence, there's something I need to correct him on. The "Pilgrim Fathers" were fleeing from the reaction of a population that were tired of their mealy mouthed, puritanical, holier than thou behavior. The English authorities actually facilitated their departure to avoid civil unrest. In fact when they settled in this land they imposed their own version of religious intolerance and bigotry on the natives and their own kind.
As to the reference to the addition of "In God We Trust" on our currency, has anyone noticed that it doesn't say in Jesus, Moses, Mohammed, Bhuda or any other representative of any religion we trust, but only "God". I will reiterate that if ever we allow these religious fanatics to gain the kind of political power they seek, we will be condemned to living in a theocratic dictatorship that will make the Taliban seem like a bunch of left wing liberal hippies.
Posted by michael sawyer on 05/09/2009 @ 02:47PM PT
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Once again Lara,the people that you claim are Christians and have screwed you over do not worship the God I do. A Biblical Christian knows that we are not to participate in Worldly Governments. The reason for this is Satan is the Ruler of the Earth. I do agree with you that a lot of Sunday Going Church people suck. In fact a lot of them do. I do not go to Church unless my Mother needs a ride. Jesus's church is in the heart not in any building.
26000 preachers have sold out to our Luciferian rulers. Just Google preachers on FEMA payroll. These are the people you and I both do not care for. You are trying to classify us as all the same. You will not find very many Biblical Christians going to Church or Serving in Government. We do not believe in the Worldly Things that you classify us all in. You will never see a true Biblical Christan in a Government Position.
I know many aetheists that are among the finest people I have ever known. A true biblical person is a fine human being that will harm no one and does not wants to rule or Judge anyone. Just because someone claims to be a Christian, does not mean they are. George Bush is a perfect example of that. You have had some bad experience with self proclaimed Christians as I have also.
Remember Laura, a true Biblical Christian will never do you wrong. There are many who proclaim to be, however their actions will determine the truth. So if some lies, cheats, steals, commits adultery etc. He is a lying, cheating, thieving adulterer, not a Biblical Christian.
I would never classify you with all the thieving, murdering non believers in Prison just cause neither of you believe in our Savior. You can tell the true frauds if they do not walk the talk.
Laura, I used to think just like you. Thank God I have found the truth again and hope you find the truth again also.
Posted by Mickey Theade on 05/09/2009 @ 02:57PM PT
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Ha ha ha, thank goodness there is no god Mickey.
If there were we would have to bring the bugger up on crimes against humanity and hate crimes for those that are different.
So stop your fussing, there is no god.
Frederic Starchenkovenner
Posted by Frederic Starchenkov... on 05/09/2009 @ 03:25PM PT
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Thank you Michael, that was another issue. They were also mandated to conform to the state religion. I'd say they left for both reasons.
And as for you Mickey, if two Gods descended from on high, would you know which one was yours?
So Biblical cristians good, other christians bad. Got it! Thanks for clearing that up for me. I was laboring under the misconception that you all used the bible.
Maybe you can clear up another thing? Which christians was it that were responsible for the Inquisitions? or the crusades? or the Salem witch trials? Not yours I'm sure.
Satan eh? Ruling the world you say? This is so informative. I need to dig up his E-mail address so I can ask him why drugs, depraved sex, gambling, and prostitution are illegal because I was under the impression that he likes that sort of thing.
The preachers on the FEMA payroll are there to deal with the death and grief in the aftermath of devastating natural disasters. It must be dealt with according to the particular superstitions of the individual. They want to know why their god would do this to them. Disenfranchised religious zealots can be dangerous.
And if a "true biblical christian" would never go to church or get involved in anything public or political how do you know they really exist?
Maybe god doesn't believe in christians. Woudn't that be a hoot.
Posted by Timothy Odell on 05/14/2009 @ 09:19AM PT
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God is Dog spelled backwards.... God is an English version and God is not a Christian, Muslim or Jewish. God is a sky daddy that people invented to explain the mysteries of Mother Earth.
anyone with a brain can understand that.
P.S. SIN = Self Induced Nonsense
Posted by Lara Nunes on 05/09/2009 @ 03:05PM PT
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Mother earth! who's your daddy? Father moon.
Posted by laura Gonzalez on 05/11/2009 @ 09:56AM PT
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laura Gonzalez
You wouldnt understand, at least I can see Mother earth, She is a mother to all of us, since everything that is born plants and others things came from her. Plus Father moon? hmmmm? no
But I do love the planet I live in, where radical xtians rather destroy her....
Now Jesus
Can you see Jesus?
The answer is NO
Plus why on earth would anyone want to worship a man who says you have to HATE your family before you can follow him...
Luke 14:26 says, "If any man come to me, and hate not his father and mother, and wife, and children, brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."
Have a great day
Posted by Lara Nunes on 05/11/2009 @ 10:55AM PT
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Mickey, there aint no such thing as Satan unless you are intimating that God is powerless to eliminate evil. If there were such an entity as Satan, Lucifer or the Devil; God would destroy it. If you are inferring that God allows him/it to exist in order to test us, then your God is in the same league as some nasty little boy pulling the wings off flies.
Posted by michael sawyer on 05/09/2009 @ 03:14PM PT
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Your right Laura God has no equal and NO RELIGION. Religion is man made. The Catholic Religion is the perfect example of that along with The Mormons, The Jehovah's Witnesses, The Lutherans, the Protestants and hundreds more. If you escaped from them you've done well. How corrupt they are. Jesus was not religious, he is Perfect.
Posted by Mickey Theade on 05/09/2009 @ 03:18PM PT
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Mickey
My truth is common sense, peace n love and harmony with other nonbrainwashed people and the creatures of this world . Jesus is not a GOD.. nor was he a Messiah. He was an innocent man who was killed by people who are just as blind as you are. And who believes they have the right to dictate to others on how to love, live and speak.
Separation of Church and State means.. The church people does not stick their pointy noses into the government affairs..
The public school is a state educational center, it is not a place where bible thumpers has the right to dictate to innocent children to worship the so called christian God.
The Freemasons are not Lucifertarians. I should know.
I would never go back being a Christian. I rather move forward then backwards.The government today are people whose religion is money,war and Israel.
Mother earth is our home and if we destroy her for some christian belief thinking a Jesus will come back and save the world, maybe you need to eat the blue pill and wake up.
Posted by Lara Nunes on 05/09/2009 @ 03:18PM PT
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Lara,
I know 3 Freemasons and they all claim to worship Lucifer. These guys are all above the third degree however. Maybe they are all exceptions. However if you Google Freemason and Lucifer you get 98,200 hits. That is enough proof for me.
Posted by Mickey Theade on 05/09/2009 @ 04:23PM PT
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3 Freemasons? WOW that is a large number ... and your point? being in the Mason community it doesnt matter what god they worshipped as long as they have their own personal version.
Unlike Christianity where they claim their God is the ONLY truth...
But yet your Jesus said... God is a personal belief not to be transported to a building made by man and mammon.
So 3 people believe in Lucifer, WOW .. do you want a cookie ?
Lucifer is the Morning Star, Jesus was also called the Morning star.. they are one and the same.
Plus God created both Good and Evil.. so therefore
Mikey Obey your God creations .
Posted by Lara Nunes on 05/09/2009 @ 04:50PM PT
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Ah, Mickey, a mind is a terrible thing to waste, but in your case getting wasted might do you some good.
Getting a bunch of hits on your Google search doesn't prove the truth of your assertion. It proves the extent of the paranoia.
Posted by Timothy Odell on 05/14/2009 @ 09:27AM PT
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Your right Laura God has no equal and NO RELIGION. Religion is man made. The Catholic Religion is the perfect example of that along with The Mormons, The Jehovah's Witnesses, The Lutherans, the Protestants and hundreds more. If you escaped from them you've done well. How corrupt they are. Jesus was not religious, he is Perfect.
Posted by Mickey Theade on 05/09/2009 @ 03:18PM PT
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Laura, I already ate the wake up pill. This use to be a free country, remember. I am not forcing you to anything, unlike our Luciferian Government which is telling you everything you have to do. Gotta run girl, i wish you all the Best, a happy life and Peace.
Posted by Mickey Theade on 05/09/2009 @ 03:25PM PT
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Mickey,
you can run from reason, but like all fallacies brought out into the light you cannot hide.
The bright cleansing light of reason will forever burn through the celluloid fantacies imagined before your eyes. The biddle is falling, the bibble is falling, the biddle is falling.
Posted by Frederic Starchenkov... on 05/09/2009 @ 03:32PM PT
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As I recall, Kansas adopted a one-sided creationist curriculum maybe fifteen years ago. The next election, they had a new state school board, and the change was dropped. Texas is not about to secede from the Union, as doing so would cost it a ton of money, net -- think about all the Federal facilities, such as the Manned Spaceflight Center and several Air Force bases, that would be closed forthwith. In short, this discussion is a tempest in a teapot.
Posted by Doug Samuelson on 05/09/2009 @ 03:46PM PT
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Doug Samuelson,
Just a brief comment on a state losing money if they secede from the Union. The Federal Government gets it's money from the States. Not the other way around. Without us in the individual States paying the Federal Government our taxes the Feds would have no money. The Feds are to serve the States, not the States to serve the Feds.
Posted by Mickey Theade on 05/09/2009 @ 04:11PM PT
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The Federal Government gets most of its money from taxes on individuals and corporations, especially income taxes. Some states make small-ish direct payments to the Federal Government for services. The Federal Government makes big revenue sharing payments to states, additional compensation for the costs of having certain Federal facilities (mostly military bases) in the state, and cost-sharing contributions for programs like highway construction and health care. Texas is a net beneficiary in its financial relationship with the Federal Government. Check the state budget.
Posted by Doug Samuelson on 05/09/2009 @ 09:12PM PT
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Specifically, according to http://sunshinereview.org/index.php/Texas_state_budget, 31 percent of the revenue side of the current Texas budget comes from the Federal government. The Federal reimbursement the state is seeking for disaster expenses would be in addition to that.
Posted by Doug Samuelson on 05/09/2009 @ 09:39PM PT
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As for the claim that selected disasters reflect Divine punishment, this, too, tends to be self-correcting. That is, sooner or later we all pass on, and there's too little consistency in the pattern to support any morality-based theory about it. Notice, for example, how little Pat Robertson had to say about what might have brought about the untimely demise of his friend, Jerry Falwell. (Call me a Luciferian secular humanist if you will, but I'm going with age, weight and stress here, possibly coupled with inattention to medical lab results -- I don't know enough about Mr. Falwell to guess, one way or the other, about the latter.)
Posted by Doug Samuelson on 05/09/2009 @ 03:52PM PT
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Hey Frederic Starchenkovenner,
What is a biddle?
Posted by Mickey Theade on 05/09/2009 @ 04:16PM PT
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If all of you didn't hate God so much, this whole issue wouldn't have you so upset. Maybe instead of being hateful toward and intolerant of Christians, you should instead take a good, long, hard look at yourselves and ask yourselves what God (not humans, God) ever did to you to make you hate Him so much. Likely, none of you will be able to come up with a good answer.
Fact is, this nation was founded on biblical principles as a Christian nation and for those of you who don't like it, there are other options. There are many countries where Christianity is either outlawed or at least highly discouraged. Short of moving out of the country, there is always ultra liberal, left wing, Godless San Francisco. Short of that, if you don't like what is being taught in the local public schools (rarely the best educational "opportunity {?}" around for many reasons), why not look into a private school or even better yet, homeschool your children? That way, you will have complete control over what your children are or are not taught.
Bottom line, why not take some personal responsibility (and while you're at it a good history class and maybe even a Bible class) for what goes on in your lives and the lives of your kids instead of always trying to play victims and blame everything on God and Christians?
I know, I know, anyone who responds to this will not have a good argument against my assertions (liberals never do!) but rather will just resort to name calling, making personal attacks, and leveling baseless accusations because that is all liberals have to offer. This is obviously because they know they are on the wrong side of the argument and cannot win the argument when it centers on facts and truth. Clearly, the unspoken motto of liberals is "Don't bother to confuse me with the facts, and if you do, I won't bother to try to refute them since I can't, but I will resort to being wholly intolerant of anyone who disagrees with me will immediately begin acting like a first grader and start calling nasty names!"
You all have a nice day now, and let the childish name calling begin! I know it will! You liberals are all SOOO predictable!
Posted by Naomi Smith on 05/09/2009 @ 04:41PM PT
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Wow Naomi,
I thought I was the only lover of Jesus on this site. You really come out swinging for the Lord. May Yahweh bless You as He has me.
Posted by Mickey Theade on 05/09/2009 @ 04:54PM PT
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Maybe the reason they don't put there kids in private school is because they're paying taxes to the government for public schools, and they don't have enough left over to pay money for private school.
Posted by Brian Fort on 05/09/2009 @ 10:32PM PT
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You need to read the Constitution and the Declaration. Most of the Founders were Deists, not Christians. Jefferson wrote once that he felt that most people neede "a religion"; he did not specify Christianity. They deliberately included the eparation Clause to prevent exactly what people like are doing: insisting that this was founded as a CHristian nation, that it should have Christian laws, and on and on. Jesus' instructions are always ignored or twisted. His kingdom, I have on as good an authority as anyone else, is NOT of this world. The "Christians" who are worshipping their "Warrior Jesus" and trying to get Christianity legislated and forced on school kids are so far from Christianity, they're into another thing entirely.
Ian
Posted by Ian MacLeod on 05/11/2009 @ 04:17AM PT
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Wrong, wrong, wrong. And on so many levels.
"If all of you didn't hate God so much..."
Wow! What a powerful opening. Unfortunately it displays your ignorance. See, you believe in god, I (and others) don't. Hatred of the non-existent would be illogical. It is you (and others like you) who we fear, pity, and fail to understand, not hate.
Hate is for the religious fanatics and there is no shortage there. Had you lived in old Salem would you have cheered on the lighting of the torch to burn the witch? Had you lived at other times might you have been swept up in the tide of religious fervor and thrown the stone, lit the torch, boiled the oil, stripped the flesh, or otherwise smited the unbeliever according to the urgings of your cult leader?
Your second paragraph tells me you listen to far too much right wing conservative talk radio.
Here is the most telling thing. You said:
"anyone who responds to this will not have a good argument against my assertions (liberals never do!) but rather will just resort to name calling, making personal attacks, and leveling baseless accusations because that is all liberals have to offer."
Meaning you are republican and believe all non-christians are ignorant liberals (democrats). Non belief is not the result of our stupidity as you obviously believe but rather quite the opposite. I know you've never read the book you thump because if you had you could no longer carry the notion of it being at all applicable to anything happening today. Did you sacrifice your doves this month during the five days you were unclean? See, I knew you weren't a "true" believer. Maybe there is hope for you yet.
Those of your faith who have come before you were the Taliban of their day. The atrocities of the Al Quida pale in comparison to the death and torture "justified" by your leather bound tome.
You and your ilk refuse the full story. Ignorance is bliss. Religion is bliss. See any connection?
Posted by Timothy Odell on 05/14/2009 @ 10:06AM PT
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Once again for Naomi's benefit I will draw your attention to the Tripoli treaty. I guess the word of three of our most prominent founding fathers just doesn't stand up to the the rantings of the Bible thumping preachers that she obviously listens to.
Posted by michael sawyer on 05/09/2009 @ 05:18PM PT
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Eventually, the results of such benighted views will place the United States at the bottom of the run of world powers. And the revisionist histories, which include such easily refutable (if you read and analyze) notions as that this is a Christian nation. Much of this nonsense is the product of 20th-century religious fanatics, highly ignorant of the origins of the country they proclaim to love (but from which some also want to secede!).
Posted by Julia Bondanella on 05/09/2009 @ 06:05PM PT
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I find it absolutely absurd that so many people have such a negative opinion of Texas education based on a handful of vocal people associated with government who seem quite out of touch with reality. I am a science teacher in Texas. Yes, there are overtly religious people in Texas who would like religion to be taught as part of their child's education. But I've only ever had one parent ruffle their feathers over what they saw as a religious problem in my classroom (they had a "religious" problem with Disney). Otherwise, religion has been left at home. I teach science, not science fiction nor meddled with science. The science curriculum mandated by the state does not allow for religious sentiment. Nor will the social studies curriculum when it all comes out in the wash. There are millions of people in Texas. Millions who vote. Most of them are just as "normal" as you guys are and are probably as outraged. They just aren't trying to kick themselves out of the country.
As for textbooks... there are three national standards - Texas, California and Florida. They are the biggest markets so most books tend to follow their standards. Want them to follow another state? Have more children or pay more money. Those are the things that dictate to them.
Posted by Donnell Carlson on 05/09/2009 @ 08:35PM PT
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Donnell,
Its not as much as the Texas education, but the people whoare in the education establishment who are bribed and given presents from those religious right people who wants to continue to destroy the minds of children in USA.
Science has always been my favorite subject in school, because it teaches and mind to explore the possiblities of searching the truth.
Where religion stop people from searching the truth and it destroys the thinking process of asking questions.
I give you two thumbs up for being a true science teacher.
Posted by Lara Nunes on 05/10/2009 @ 08:21AM PT
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I like Clay's suggestion that the few hard-core religious fanatics go off somewhere by themselves and leave the rest of the state and the nation in peace. As I mentioned in my earlier post, I expect that Texas will go the same way Kansas did, and other states have: when the fanatics threaten to to something too embarrassing, the rest of the voters will rouse themselves and squelch the problem.
Posted by Doug Samuelson on 05/09/2009 @ 09:19PM PT
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I like Clay's suggestion that the few hard-core religious fanatics go off somewhere by themselves and leave the rest of the state and the nation in peace. As I mentioned in my earlier post, I expect that Texas will go the same way Kansas did, and other states have: when the fanatics threaten to to something too embarrassing, the rest of the voters will rouse themselves and squelch the problem.
Posted by Doug Samuelson on 05/09/2009 @ 09:19PM PT
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I also noticed that most people in Texas didn't take long to pour buckets of ice water on the Governor's suggestion that the state secede. Presumably they reached the same conclusion I did, based on the same evidence, about which way the net benefits flow. Also, as in much of the South, people in Texas deeply distrust the Federal Government but are extremely patriotic. They may want the Federal Government to back off on many issues, but they love the country.
Posted by Doug Samuelson on 05/09/2009 @ 09:22PM PT
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No wonder your kids rank 34th in the world in education. Instead of 1st like they did in the 60's. Where do you think the Feds get there money? It comes out of the pockets of the people in the States. The Feds have no money if there are no taxes on the people in the States. This is a country of States, Supposed to be United. The States have the money not the Feds!! You guys should consider more civics classes and learn your rights as individuals and quit expecting the Feds to bale you out with borrowed money. I hope you know what kind of Change is coming your way. It sure isn't going to be what you expect.
Posted by Mickey Theade on 05/09/2009 @ 10:22PM PT
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This is why government shouldn't be involved in education, or people should receive tax refunds from the government to educate their kids in private schools if they choose. Otherwise this controversy will never go away.
Posted by Brian Fort on 05/09/2009 @ 10:29PM PT
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Naomi calls liberals and certain presumably liberal locations (San Francisco) a bunch of names and then says she expects the liberals to call her a bunch of names. Mickey keeps saying the Federal Government gets its money from the states and that Federal involvement is what's wrong with US education, when the fact is that many states, including Texas, are net recipients of Federal money. If people don't use what they know or could readily know, they are poorly positioned to criticie anyone else. As for why our kids aren't learning so well, one big reason is that our teachers get less prep time than those in any other developed country. One reason for _that_ is the amount of time they have to spend defending their curriculum decisions against ideological zealots.
Posted by Doug Samuelson on 05/09/2009 @ 10:57PM PT
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A lot of the money the states get come from the Federal Defecit, which is money out of our pockets anyways.
Teachers don't have to spend time defending thier curriculum from ideological zealots. That's what school boards are for.
Posted by Brian Fort on 05/10/2009 @ 12:00AM PT
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Teachers _do_ have to spend time defending curriculum decisions from ideological zealots when said zealots take over the school board. That's the topic that started this discussion. See also State of Tennessee v. Scopes, back in the 1920s. And a lot of the states' money does come from the Federal Government, which in turn gets a lot of it from deficit financing. Whether it's a good idea or not (a separate question), the Federal Government can do a lot more of that than the states. That's why it's not in a state's interest to secede. Get it?
Posted by Doug Samuelson on 05/10/2009 @ 02:25PM PT
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Federal involvement has harmed schools in one important way. Administrations have grown by leaps and bounds as school districts hired specialists to help them get Federal grants and comply with Federal mandates.
Posted by Doug Samuelson on 05/09/2009 @ 11:00PM PT
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this has gone a long way from the issue of the mental nourishment of our children. i hold that they should be taught two things: seek knowledge & question everything.
charles zeitler
Posted by charles zeitler on 05/09/2009 @ 11:03PM PT
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Those are two things I didn't learn from school.
Posted by Brian Fort on 05/10/2009 @ 12:03AM PT
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neither did I. ( my father's answer to most questions was
"think for yourself" ) but notice that thus armed, a student can deal with any deficiency or corruption in the school 'system'
charles zeitler
Posted by charles zeitler on 05/10/2009 @ 02:28AM PT
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Seek knowledge & question everything.
Beautifully simple and eternally powerful.
Answers and faith in answers are a dime a dozen.
But one little well focussed question will bring all the mountain built answers and faith in those puny answers down to rubble.
So i ask, where is your god, what is your god, why is the hatred of your king so blood thirsty toward children, women, and those vulnerable among us?
And i ask that if your god is so powerful, why not pay me a visit?
i've a few things to discuss with this or that god twit.
Frederic Starchenkovenner
Posted by Frederic Starchenkov... on 05/10/2009 @ 05:47AM PT
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Annuit Coeptis Novus Order Seclorum -
Anti Christ Now Our Savior
( Illuminatus Trilogy - Robert A Wilson & Robert Shea }
charles zeitler
Posted by charles zeitler on 05/13/2009 @ 02:05AM PT
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Annuit Coeptis "He (god) has favored our undertakings."
Novus Ordo Seclorum. "A new order for the ages
Nice try
Posted by Timothy Odell on 05/14/2009 @ 10:48AM PT
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i think that laws & public policy should be
based on The Law as received by my favorite
anti-christ, The Beast, ( aka Aleister Crowley )
charles zeitler
Posted by charles zeitler on 05/16/2009 @ 12:16AM PT
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By the way, Naomi, one party who clearly favors at least partial separation of religion and state is ... wait for it .... GOD! Moses is the last person in Scripture anointed as both religious and secular leader -- and he had to delegate a lot of the political and judicial duties to others, and many of the religious duties to his brother Aaron, during his lifetime. Doing it all is too much for anyone, and pluralistic leadership has tended to do better, historically, than the more single-minded regimes. The Jewish sages taught that causeless hatred had proven to be as bad as idolatry, incest and murder. Something to consider, folks....
Posted by Doug Samuelson on 05/09/2009 @ 11:21PM PT
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Having grown up in Texas, I have to say - try not to go too overboard in your assessment of the people in Texas. I have quite a few friends that braved returning to, or staying in Texas, and love it for some solid reasons. Unfortunately, the absolutely disgusting leadership in the school board, and otherwise, does stem from the current governor and government, which is nothing less than a Bush legacy. Like many other national Republican supporters many Texan right-wingers are waking up to the dangers of allowing an evangelical/fundamentalist portion of the population to be the primary political actors. The rich in this group utilize their power to influence the many poor struggling folks who fall back on religion for comfort. Regardless on how you feel about religion, a stronger education system would help both the poverty and the at-large ignorance that exists in our culture; this ignorance is neither specific to Texas, or contained by it – though some of our political leaders best exemplify the rich dominating the poor. However, remember that LBJ initiated the “Great Society” legislation, including civil rights, and the “War on Poverty”. LBJ wasn’t perfect, none of us are, but he is an example of the Texas outspoken nature and independent spirit put to good use.
Stereotypes can go too far. Rather than cursing the children by writing off the state, why not try partnering with the strong and motivated groups of teachers and citizes that are brave enough to stand up for real education in Texas (see the source of this article)? I was very lucky to be the student of one such wonderful biology teacher. It seems that many people here have forgotten that education is for the children, and Texas children have the same rights as any other state.
I am an ecologist (read – evolution YES!) and sustainable agriculture and food systems specialist (read – progressively teaching for the betterment of the biological and social situation around food), and a university faculty member. Unfortunately, as Chomsky has pointed out, I cannot describe myself as both liberal and conservative, because our culture has corrupted the meaning of those words, so I will sat that I am a resourse conservationist, a believer in liberal education (enabling persons to have the ability and the disposition to try to reach agreements on matters of fact, theory, and actions through rational discussions).
My point in sharing this is to say that even those of us raised in a christian conservative setting can have our perspectives influenced when great secular educators are empowered and supported. Don’t let your own frustration with the last eight years ruin the future for peace and educational access in this nation.
Posted by Julie C on 05/10/2009 @ 12:22AM PT
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Brazen i am, but XO for you.
And allow reason to be unbridled for the health of the children and their futures to throw off the demonic christian cult religion.
Pave the way for education not indoctrination.
Let the light of reason burn away the shadows of christian cult demonization of imagination, human animal creativity in its supreme form and freedom.
Oh, and by the way, if anyone knows this christian god entity, please tell this demented twit god entity that i'm out to spank that little sucker into the next millennium.
The nerve of such a booggey man scaring children till they cannot think straight.
You can run from reason, but you cannot hide.
Frederic Starchenkovenner
Posted by Frederic Starchenkov... on 05/10/2009 @ 03:47AM PT
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Well said. Texans do come in all shapes, sizes and political ideologies. The most important civil rights legislation the US ever enacted was largely the work of two white men from Texas, Sam Rayburn and Lyndon Johnson. George W Bush's predecessor as Governor was Ann Richards. As I said in earlier posts, I expect good sense to prevail there.
Posted by Doug Samuelson on 05/10/2009 @ 02:10PM PT
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Hear are some thoughts to think about from some of the greatest people who uses their braincells.
"He who is not angry when there is just cause for anger is immoral. Why? Because anger looks to the good of justice. And if you can live amid injustice without anger, you are immoral as well as unjust." Aquinas
=
"I don't know a more irreligious attitude, one more utterly bankrupt of any human content, than one which permits children to be destroyed."- - Daniel Berrigan
="I have the audacity to believe that peoples everywhere can have: three meals a day for their bodies, - education and culture for their minds - and dignity, equality and freedom for their spirits" Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
Posted by Lara Nunes on 05/10/2009 @ 08:06AM PT
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Before I bow out from this discussion I would like to touch on a word that came up in these comments; HATE!
Firstly Naomi: You are a thoroughly brain washed Fundie, "when all else fails accuse them of hating God". I am a Deist which means I acknowledge God unequivocally, no qualifications and no conditions. I dont need mythology telling me that someone who looked like me died to save my soul. Or that I will go to Heaven or Hell when I die; depending on how I lived my life. I just know that God exists and that he/she has never revealed his/her thoughts or requirements to anyone, and that anyone who says they have had such revelations is either a deluded fool or a conniving liar. What I despise about religions is the way they manipulate people and pick their pockets especially the Fundamentalist/Evangelists but I would not waste an intense, exquisite emotion such as hatred on these groups.
As to the hate law thing; this movement is being propelled by the LBGT crowd who want a law in place whereby if one of their kind gets a thoroughly deserved thrashing regardless of whether or not it had anything to do with their sexual orientation, they can scream "Hate Crime"! thereby directing focus away from something they may have done or said to provoke the beating. The law should be rigorously applied to any case of brutality regardless of what was perceived as the perpertrators reason for their actions; no one can read what is in someone elses heart.
Posted by michael sawyer on 05/10/2009 @ 08:19AM PT
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So, hate is bad, but some thrashings are thoroughly deserved because it's OK to hate certain people, especially LGBTs? Or maybe just when they say certain things, like "stop bothering me"? I see....
Posted by Doug Samuelson on 05/10/2009 @ 02:14PM PT
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Let Texas secede and continue to dumb down their citizens. Their investments in themselves will fail like it failed the rest of the country. You cannot argue with stupidity!
Posted by Greg Zyzanski on 05/10/2009 @ 12:12PM PT
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Most of the folks on this website appear to be Liberals. The word Liberal is defined as someone that is broadminded. I do not see much broadminded thought here, unless someone agrees with you. There are no liberal minds here. This site lacks the friendly people I am used to debating with. All of this hatred spewed here will classify you all as Terrorists under the New Homeland Security Publications.
Posted by Mickey Theade on 05/10/2009 @ 02:38PM PT
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Mikey
A terrorists is people who are stuck on their religion belief, who thinks this country is founded on a religion. There is no hate only in yours, since your remarks is just a sign that you know you are wrong and people who has a freethinking mind can see past your words.
Now if you want to talk about the terrorists in our country, please read the website of all the Hate groups we have in USA, notice also the religion it is behind and then maybe you need to understand.. DHS is looking at you.
Hate Groups in the United States
http://www.orgsites.com/ca/understandinghate/
And since I am not part of any kind of Hate Groups or the religion it is part of, therefore I am not a Terrorists.
I love my country and I stand to defend the Constitution and our Bill of Rights.But I will never defend those who decides to destroy it, over the radical religion groups whose actions proves what they are.
Have a good day
Posted by Lara Nunes on 05/11/2009 @ 10:30AM PT
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Hey Mikey
DId you know your savior Jesus, is considered a Liberal, not a Republican.
Why is Jesus concidered a Liberal?
Webster's dictionary defines a Liberal as one who is open minded, not strict in the observance of orthodox, traditional or established forms or
ways. Jesus was a pluralist Liberal who taught that one need not conform to strict and orthodox views of God, religion, and life. He rejected greed, violence, the glorification of power, the amassing of wealth without social balance, and the personal judging of others, their lifestyles and beliefs.
Paying Taxes & Separation of Church & State
[Matthew 22:21]
Corporate Greed and the Religion of Wealth
[John 2:14 & 15.]
[Luke 12.15.]
[Matthew 19:23]
Oh How many preachers today does this?
You cannot serve both God and Money. [Matthew 6:24.]
http://www.jesusisaliberal.org/
It is so sad, I have to place verses in order for SOME Christians to understand my words, only proves why Religion does need to be part of the PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM.
And before some christians gets all bend out of shape, lets put the definition of when I say SOME it means ; SOME ( ADJECTIVE) Being a portion or an unspecified number or quantity of a whole or group.
ALL(pronoun): Everyone; everything.
Therefore I am not categorizing ALL Christians, just SOME.
Have a great day
Posted by Lara Nunes on 05/11/2009 @ 11:56AM PT
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Mickey -
thanks for posting. As I read / skimmed the posts here I wondered if I would be the only one to point out it appears that the 'liberal' posters are the ones most negative (I don't like using hate). I always have said that "you are who you are, where you grew up through high school". So education or even more important the HS teachers are the ones that influence our countries future. I don;t know about you or most posters, I'm a baby boomer and most of my schoolmates who went into education, were not anywhere near the top of the class. Then there were the many good female teachers who taught for a few years, then left to raise children, etc. Just as they may have the experience to be positive influences. Scary, that after so many years that the level of educators are so screwed in their perception of reality, life, government in a 'liberal' mode.
BTW - Currently I'm an athesist, agnostic who in my formative years was brought up a Unitarian/Universalist !! Can't ghet much more liberal than that ! But I sure as heck wouldn't tell someone else what to or to not believe.
Oh well.
If someone who wants to think some more about, values, history, economics etc. I recommend reading anything that Thomas Sowell has written, even if you might not agree 100%. I have even read some of his columns form 10 years ago - and he's RIGHT on Target !
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell1.asp
Posted by Hersey katahdin on 05/10/2009 @ 03:31PM PT
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Funny how the abusers always blame the victims for the abuse.
Blame the children, blame the vulnerable as the christians demonize all that raises humanity above the eternal torture professed and promoted by the dictator religion.
Spew the negative judgments daily and then cast the abused as the negative.
Clever to be sure, but it won't wash. Burning women, raping children, attempting to destroy free will just will not ever succeed.
There is no god, no sin, no evil in dancing, no evil in music. There is evil in the agenda of the christain propaganda as the boy in Ohio is experiencing now by being expelled for dancing.
The sick serpent twists of trying to force human life to the perverted aims of chistianity are an on going assault that is as negative and degenerative as the Nazi scheme for the Jewish death camps.
Frederic Starchenkovenner
Posted by Frederic Starchenkov... on 05/11/2009 @ 02:15AM PT
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I'm not as impressed with Thomas Sowell as you are, but he is pretty good. At least he pretty much follows Mark Twain's sage advice: first get your facts right, then slant them to fit your point of view. (As contrasted with Rush Limbaugh, who has been repeatedly caught making up "facts" to support his opinions.) Who does impress me, you might ask? David Broder and Peggy Noonan. And _The Economist_, which I'd rate as the best English-language news magazine in the world.
Posted by Doug Samuelson on 05/10/2009 @ 05:30PM PT
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Texas has had entirely too much influence on textbooks since the Gablers back in the 1980's. Unfortunately, the textbook situation has gone from bad to worse. The bad was the failure to take on anything controversial. The worse will be to turn textbooks into propaganda suggesting the United States is a "Christian" nation. It isn't, and it it ever becomes a theocracy, I will be looking for a new home.
Posted by Sean Black on 05/10/2009 @ 08:16PM PT
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Sean, this is extremely interesting in that corrupt minded funda-mentalists would subvert the very tools used in public education into a vehicle of propaganda similar to the Council of Nicea subverting religious belief into a misogynous organization.
This subversion of fact, the insidious revision of reality by Myth-storians is the bed rock of propaganda. How interesting that chris-storians would try to do to the USA what the Romans did to Arabs. The chris-storains want to subvert the beginnings of USA to be the seedling of chrissy-funda-mentalism as the Romans purported murdered that fellow jesus and then took over the religion under the banner of catholicism.
These are interesting usurpations of reality and a tactic that practices predatory disinformation. This piques my cranial because i often hear christian propaganda whining about the distaste that say some of us have for their religion when all the while the engines of assault through chrissy-storians assualtst the public continually with disinformation, lies, and sordid propaganda as their only vehicle of expression.
But, please do not leave, we need you here.
And the chris-storains need a contiual reality check.
Frederic Starchenkovenner
1041 VT Route 118N
Belvidere, VT 05442
802-644-2556
Posted by Frederic Starchenkov... on 05/11/2009 @ 02:04AM PT
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Do you folks believe that there should be a complete seperation of Religion and State?
Posted by Mickey Theade on 05/11/2009 @ 08:32AM PT
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Thisin folk, Mickey, thinks christianity should receive what it has given :) and ten fold.
Gettin warmer are ya ?
And as for thinking, well guess that speaks for its self now doughnut.
Frederic Starchenkovenner
Posted by Frederic Starchenkov... on 05/11/2009 @ 10:53AM PT
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Unabashedly YES!!!
Posted by Damon Ballard on 05/11/2009 @ 01:18PM PT
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Yes Mikey,
That is exactly what the Freemasons and other presidents and the soldiers believe since they took the Oath of protecting our Consitution and Bill of Rights.
Peace
Posted by Lara Nunes on 05/11/2009 @ 03:31PM PT
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What a silly question my son. Let us say we opened the gates to religions to assume power in government. Do you assume it would be your religion wielding the biggest gavel? How many Muslims in America? Jews? Taoists? Hindus? Mormans? etc.
Be very careful of what you wish for.
Posted by Timothy Odell on 05/14/2009 @ 11:01AM PT
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lets not be hypocritical and ultra biased if this was coming from a leftist side making desicions and having the ultimate say no body would be complaining about domination and indoctrination from the right. Neutrality and unbiased has died in America. Face it Everyone has an agenda(leftist,rightist) and their going to implement regardless of who they aleinate so stop crying when you dont get your way. I dont think "mother earth" is my mother or cheap literature as Harry Potter should be used instead of a text book but it happens.
The people have spoken, and small minority can force their opinion on the majority like or not beauty of a democratic government.
Posted by laura Gonzalez on 05/11/2009 @ 10:17AM PT
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Don't cha jist love those know it all peoples holly-er than thou-ists
who make those blanket statements of' magnanimous stature: "Face it Everyone has an agenda..." ... spoken by a christian no doubt.
Yes-er-eee, takes a indoctrinated mind to come up with canned ideological script pronouncements.
Three cheers for AI.
Frederic Starchenkovenner
Posted by Frederic Starchenkov... on 05/11/2009 @ 10:59AM PT
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laura Gonzalez
Cheap Literature to me is the Bible, since it has been rewritten so may times none of the words are truth and logical. But then again we have people in this country who worship that book and then wonders why are country is looked upon as the joke of the day in other countries.
Posted by Lara Nunes on 05/11/2009 @ 11:22AM PT
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Frankly speaking Laura you have not done your research into the Bible very well. All of you that have made Blanket statements about me are basing your ideas on nothing solid or factual. None of you know me, my age, my history or even if I am a man or a woman. What I can do for you is guide you towards some real truth from people with Phd's in Physics. If Science is what you all believe in, cool, I believe in Science to. Quantum Physics is really cool and very truthful. Quantum Physics states that the World we live in is just an illusion and part of a much larger reality than we know of. It says that there are 10 or 11 different known dimensions that we live in, not just the 3 or 4 that most of us know about and experience everyday. I guess the best way to explain it is, we are living in a matrix, just like the movie, The Matrix with Keanu Reeves.
I myself am not very good at explaining things, so I ask you all to invest 60 minutes of your life and listen to just the first section at http://firefighters.org/html/library.cfm?Author_ID=74. If any of you have any other questions you would like me to answer you can email at genesis1twenty9@gmail.com. I will be happy to send in the direction where you can find real answers. Eternity is a long time to make a mistake with.
The odds of The Bible correctly predicting the hundreds of events through Prophecy that it has more than 1 in 10 to the fifth power. Ask a statistician how big that number is. The book of Daniel prophesied over 600 years in advance to the Day when Jesus would ride into Jerusalem on a donkey. The only way that can be done is by someone that is outside the fourth dimension of time. Yahweh the Creator is that entity.
So I thank you all for reading my thoughts and please try to keep an open mind. Email me anytime. Hope to see you all in eternity, the soul lives forever.
A hui hou malama pono and Aloha,Mickey
Posted by Mickey Theade on 05/11/2009 @ 01:22PM PT
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Chris Meacham
You stated " First of all, Laura has a valid point. All religions should have equal, factual coverage in a social studies class. It's a class which is intended to teach facts _about_ and _study_ of culture, which includes religions, both current and extinct. The religions should not be taught, but taught **about.**"
Well lets ask the Xian fundies, how would they feel if Islam, Buddhism,Shamanism,Taoism,Agnostic and even Satanism was part of the social studies programs. Do you know how many people like Laura and Mickey would scream about NO NO NO we cant have my child forced to learn that.. blah blah blah, not only that I have notice that some people thinks that Christianity is a difficult subject, when actually isn't anyone who does the actual history about Christianity ( outside of the bible) would understand what it is actually about.
Second, about my belief? It has been around before Christianity,Judaism and Islam and the people of my belief does not convert people,we do not kill people or animals and we do not worship a god which advocates to kill non believers.
Personal attack, maybe you need to look at Laura's personal attack against others in here who also speak their mind.Christianity can not profess they are victims, since many people of today have been victims of that religion.Slavery,Burning of women, children and men.Hate crimes against GLBT people and Muslims and Pagans and Jewish people.. the list is so long you would think the rap sheet of that religion a person would be able to write a book about it. which many already have.
Peace
Posted by Lara Nunes on 05/11/2009 @ 01:49PM PT
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I'm sure that the "Christian" fundies would totally disagree with my statement. But Christianity teaches an extreme level of tolerance that these "Christian" fundies do not want to learn or follow. Personally, even as a Christian I want to know about the beliefs of others. The only ones I have been taught about are the Buddhism, Hindu, the three surviving middle eastern religions, and evolutionary theory, because that is all the Madison County Alabama Board of education deigned necessary. And the teachings on each of those religions and the one scientific theory were extremely limited because every origin story is politically incorrect in this country. It's despicable. I've had to take college courses and search the internet to learn about evolutionary theory. I've had to purchase a Book of Mormon and a Quran in order to learn about religions of which I am not a member (and you'd be surprised how far off they are in action from their texts just like most Christian religions). These are things that I should have learned in school in order to prepare me in dealing with other cultures in a globalized economy.
Keep in mind that the actions of the evil and self-centered should not be attributed to their cause. Many evil people have proposed using the teachings of Darwin and evolutionary theory for evil purposes, even Hitler himself, but that does not make Darwin or evolutionary theory wrong or evil. Similarly, most religions are not wrong or evil simply because some of their proponents were.
To quote the neocons, something I seldom have reason to do, and the IRA, "[religions] don't kill people; people kill people."
As to the personal attacks of Laura, I had not read past her first post in this thread and it appeared from my view that you attacked first. This is exactly why attacking is not helpful in a civilized debate. It polarizes onlookers against you, even when they may agree with your point of view. First impressions are very weighty.
Posted by Chris Meacham on 05/11/2009 @ 02:23PM PT
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Oh the smoke and mirrors of the twists and turns of serpents of jello.
Ever try to catch an eel with the bare hands, slippery little bugger, but add a little simple paper and the snake serpent of water is caught.
The very existence of a treatise aimed at demonization is an attack at the outset of the bearer before the first breath is ever drawn.
The premise from which any judgment or comment comes must first be filtered through the dirty lungs of the inhaled evil.
With that, chrispy-ness is burnt before the match is lit and already an offence by mere existance.
Frederic Starchenkovenner
Posted by Frederic Starchenkov... on 05/11/2009 @ 04:20PM PT
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Well spoken Chris and thank you for backing or Savior in a righteous fashion.
Posted by Mickey Theade on 05/11/2009 @ 04:16PM PT
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Separation of church and state means: No restrictions are placed on religions except perhaps that a religious denomination cannot become the state religion.
Meaning : This country is NOT a Christian Nation.
Framers believed in separating church and state.Our framers feared a state denominational church based upon European history. ...The framers were opposed to the establishment of a state religion.The framers of our Constitution did not want America to become a theocracy. They did not believe in a theocratic state. The framers of our Constitution did not want clergymen to pick the Presidents and set government policy. George Washington and the framers of our Constitution believed in "secularism."
Secularists are very quick to point out that the word "God" does not appear in the Preamble to the U.S. Constitution. They claim that this is highly significant. It proves that the United States should not be 'under God' in their opinion. Of course, they are correct in one point: The word "God" does not appear in the Preamble to the U.S. Constitution or anywhere else.
In the Bill Of Rights :
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."
This statement is the foundation for the doctrine of separation of church and state.
The framers were opposed to the establishment of a state religion. They wanted each citizen to be able to worship freely according to his or her own conscience. They required specifically in Article Six of the Constitution that "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." Their intentions were clear.
For over 200 years this doctrine has gone unchallenged until religious groups began to erode its meaning in order to allow the government to use public tax dollars to support private religious schools and other religious institutions.
Our founding fathers wanted to avoid the kind wars that had been fought for centuries in the name of religion:
The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries. James Madison.
It is a fundamental human right, a privilege of nature, that all human beings should worship according to their own convictions; one human person's religion neither harms nor helps another. It is not proper to force religion. It must be undertaken freely, not under pressure. Tertullian 212 AD
Posted by Lara Nunes on 05/11/2009 @ 04:35PM PT
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Lara, I didn't intend to post any more comments but having read your latest contribution I have to say you are "THE MAN" or should I say "THE WOMAN". I very much doubt that the "Fundies" will eschew their superstitious mythology, but maybe if they researched our history as you obviously have they just might cease making the false claim that this nation was founded on Christianity. Oh! I forgot the whole foundation of their case is based on false claims.
Please accept a big cyber hug from
Michael Sawyer
Posted by michael sawyer on 05/11/2009 @ 05:20PM PT
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I was wondering Frederic, where you learned so much about the Bible, where you studied it and what version you have read?What are the names of the Scholars that you may studied with. John the Baptist was a son Mary's mothers sister. i think that makes Jesus and John Cousins. Mary Magdalene was just a sinner like the rest of us. Jesus did show himself to her first after his resurrection.
And Laura, there are people that can prove the Bible as truth. You do have to spend a little time at it however. A good place to start, would once again be at http://firefighters.org/html/library.cfm?Author_ID=74.Would you both please take 1 hour to listen to a Physicist explain it to you.
It is humorous that when ever I try to explain the truth of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ with some of your science, none of you ever have a comment, you just seem to ignore the facts and never want to discuss it. Please listen for 1 hour and get back to me with your thoughts. Thanks again.
Posted by Mickey Theade on 05/11/2009 @ 05:16PM PT
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Mikey
You seem to have a problem spelling my name correctly.. My name is LARA.. It is not LAURA... I have enough repect to spell your name correctly, which this shows me that you lack the same respect to spell mine name correctly.
Which proves your religious belief does not teach you to respect others properly and since I am not a xian... I was taught respect those who deserve it...
Another thing I have done plenty of research about the bible, which means I have read the front of the book to the last chapter of the book. Meaning I have read the whole book( front and back and upside down and backwards)
Have you read your bible correctly Mikey ?
God Commands Burning Humans
Joshua 7:15
Humans are Fuel for Fire
Ezekiel 21:33-37
Burn Nonbelievers
Deuteronomy 13:13-19
Laws of Rape in the Bible
Deuteronomy 22:28-29
Death to the Rape Victim
Deuteronomy 22:23-24
Sex Slaves
Exodus 21:7-11
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
Deuteronomy 22:20-21
God Will Kill Children
Hosea 9:11-16
Bible slaves values!
Exodus 21:20-21
Jesus approved slavery
Ephesians 6:5
Jesus clearly approves of beating slaves
Luke 12:47-48
Slavery Allowed
Exodus 21:2-6
Leviticus 25:44-46
Hate Others
Ezra 9:10-12
No Mixed Marriages
Ezra 9:1-2
Sacrifice First Born Sons to God
Exodus 22:28-29
Jesus is not perfect if he steals
Matthew 21:1-2
God Inflicts Evil
Jeremiah 25:29
Moses Kills a Man
Exodus 2:11-12
Bloody Sabbath
Numbers 15:32-36
This last verse... changed my mind from being a christian at age 15.
Baby Bashing
Psalms 137:9
Read this quote again please:
It is a fundamental human right, a privilege of nature, that all human beings should worship according to their own convictions; one human person's religion neither harms nor helps another. It is not proper to force religion. It must be undertaken freely, not under pressure. Tertullian 212 AD
Another thing it is impossible to brainwash a Freethinker...
So your little website, doesnt work...
Peace
Have a great evening.
Posted by Lara Nunes on 05/11/2009 @ 06:26PM PT
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My apologies on your name Lara,
That is quite a list you have there! To bad it is all taken out of context AND it is cut and pasted right out http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm This website is anonymous and has no contact information on who owns it. I did a little checking and the domain owner is hiding like most luciferians do behind a proxy server and the administrator is at EVILBIBLE.COM@domainsbyproxy.com.
Out of all your ramblings on you have not even attempted to argue any of the scientific points that I have brought up. Neither has your com padre Frederic that has not spelled my name right either. You run and hide from facts. The website that I sent you too is run by firefighters who put their lives on the line everyday for people like you. They have had many millions of people go their website for spiritual guidance. Hundreds of times more than this website that run by liberals that are anything but liberal.
I am disabled and study science, history and the scriptures about 12 hours a day and have for many years. Further more I and a handful of others have seen Jesus the Creator of the Universe and would be willing to take a lie detector test to prove it. The only reason I correspond with you earth dwellers is because of all the other people that go to these sites and are looking for the answers to why we are here and where we go when we die. You liberals are the brainwashed atheists that practice your own religion whether you know it or not. If Jesus is not Lord then why would it even matter to you what we think. Fact of the matter is you are religious. But you can not allow freedom of religion for everyone as our Constitution is written. So you are greedy and do not want equality for all. You must be of the NWO who are the evil bankers that have bankrupted our country. Over 14 trillion they have stolen since Obama became President. You can find those numbers through Bloomberg and AP. So in the near future when the troops are in the street, there is no food in the stores and the only place you can fill your belly is at a FEMA Camp where you will have to take a Vaccination that will probably kill you and you have no hope left on this Planet. You can still turn back to the man that suffered severe pain and torture hanging on that cross 2000 years ago and he will take you in and give you everlasting life outside of time in eternity. So Lara and Frederic, that my story and I'm sticking to it!! God bless you all.
Posted by Mickey Theade on 05/11/2009 @ 10:12PM PT
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I've never understood the emotional appeal to the suffering on the cross, for several reasons:
1) It was a common form of suffering in the Roman Empire, for thousands upon thousands of other people. One might wish a divinity had exercised his powers saving all those others from crucifixion, rather than undergoing it himself.
2) Three days of pain is unfortunate, and certainly deserving of pity for anybody suffering it, but let's be honest: cancer patients, aids patients, any number of other victims of disease undergo far worse suffering for a far longer period of time. Relatively speaking, crucifixion isn't the worst of all possible sufferings.
3) I mean no disrespect here, and am just exercising critical thinking of a very simple sort, with this last one: If the crucifixion all along would end with the resurrection and ascension to heaven, then that three days was sort of an act, wasn't it? Where's the sacrifice, beyond the three days of pain? It was immediately followed by eternity in heaven. That doesn't seem tragic to me, nor particularly heroic. Because it really doesn't seem like a sacrifice at all, does it?
Explanations?
Posted by Clay Burell on 05/11/2009 @ 10:42PM PT
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And Mickey, for what it's worth, I'm fully capable of appreciating the viewpoints of some Christians: Valentinus, a Bishop of the early Church, had a way of interpreting the life and teachings of Jesus that was unfortunately defeated and declared anathema at the Council of Nicea - a case of the best man losing.
You can read the history of that in Elaine Pagels' "Beyond Belief: The Secret Gospel of Thomas" (all of Pagels' works are fascinating glimpses of early Christianity and its diverse schools of thought, and the politics that led to the triumph of the questionable creed that still holds sway today for both Catholics and Protestants).
I can't recommend highly enough Bishop John Shelby Spong: an honest man of the cloth, who respects the compelling necessity for ancient beliefs to change and adapt to modern knowledge. He's got a great newsletter you can sign up for. Google him.
Posted by Clay Burell on 05/11/2009 @ 10:49PM PT
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I do not need answers from you about anything, You think your God only speaks to you xians, I am sorry to burst your freaking bubble, but that spirit speaks to many people in different languages. so dont think you are superior over others.
I am not brainwashed, brainwashed are people with no racial thought, who doesnt think outside the box and who are not freethinkers.
Mikey you lack all those catagories
It matters because you Mikey thinks you are better then others, but really you stink of those 7 deadly sins. Plus your religion has caused more wars and death towards non believers and other christians too.
NO I am not, its called spiritual, something you wouldnt understand. Spiritually is not founded by xianity.
Sorry to burst your bubble, if you want to worship a dead jewish man on a stick, then go ahead, but keep your belief out of the innocent lives of non believers children, stick your nose out of private peoples lives and stop trying to dictate to us how we should eat, shit, screw and die. Its none of your freaking bussiness. Your Bible rules does not effect us nonbelievers.. we are the other people who were not enslaved by your GOD.
Nope I am not greedy, sorry to bust your bubble on that subject. I dont own a credit card, but I bet you do. Equality ? I believe in equality, but I dont believe you have the right to dicatite to me, since you dont know me personally and your bible is full of dung.
Nope, sorry.. try looking at the founders of the federal reserve and well the wars...
Please, Bush stoled more for 8 years on the war on terror lies... did you forget that? I am not a happy camper about what Obama is doing, but yeah the wars are for AIPAC...
In the near future I will be eating my food I grow my own, I will be living in my own house( which I own) and I will be living off the land. I would not go to no FEMA camp, that is for xians like yourself. I dont get vaccinated because I dont walk on all fours. so maybe you need to watch what you wish for on others, because it can hit right back at you in a whiplash.
Why on earth would I want to worship some man who was tortured and hanged..That is something you would do. Now I understand why xtians supported the torture of raping and robbing and killing of innocent Iraqi men,women and children. cause its written in your bible. and the same is being done around the world.. and youwonder why I will never worship your Jesus, because what you do is not called love, it is called true evil.
Peace
Posted by Lara Nunes on 05/12/2009 @ 03:28AM PT
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Clay,
I really wish I had more time to participate in this discussion right now. I don't think I'm going to get between Lara and Mickey as they seem to have both stepped way out of rational debate. One in particular is acting like anything but a Christian since shortly after I last posted.
The reasons Christians consider the crucifixion of Christ to be such a sacrifice are two, or possibly three, main reasons:
1) He is believed to have had the choice to stay in Heaven and not come to earth. He sacrificed deity to show us how to live.
2) He suffered a cat-o-ninetails flogging and being nailed to a cross (the most painful and public death known before or since) for nothing more than teach religious beliefs that were contrary to the regional state religion. He sacrificed dignity to show us how to live.
3) He died and remained dead for three calendar days. He sacrificed life to teach us how to live.
I grant you, if He knew He was going to Heaven afterwards, then it was a limited sacrifice. But consider the difficulty of going through with surgery knowing full well that the most likely outcome is that you will feel better. That is little comfort before or while going through the surgery. Tell a child that everything will be alright, and he is just as likely to say "but I hurt now."
The point of the sacrifice is that God was willing to experience the worst that happens in our life so that we could understand that there are things afterward that are worth the trouble.
Personally I discourage emotional appeals to accepting Christianity. As Christians we are taught to not let emotions guide us, so what sense does it make to entreat people with emotion?
Posted by Chris Meacham on 05/13/2009 @ 09:15AM PT
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Forgot to mention, Reason #2 is a good point towards why no Christian who has paid attention to Christ will ask for anything but freedom of religion in society. Christ NEVER forced his teachings on anyone. Neither should we, his followers. In fact, he taught us to move along when someone did not listen and to pray for and give help to those who physically or mentally abuse us.
Posted by Chris Meacham on 05/13/2009 @ 09:21AM PT
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Chris, I appreciate your comment and its civility. I think you and I could enjoy a night of coffee or wine, and not end it screaming at each other, but actually enjoying it, even though we'd probably neither of us budge much.
I can't budge much on the "sacrifice" appeal (and totally agree that it's not a strong appeal in the first place, though we have to admit John 3:16 is hugely responsible for this), because to me, simply put, sacrifice means permanent loss of the thing sacrificed. That ain't the case with the death of Jesus, nor with his day of agony. (And to nitpick, some of the experiments done in Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were pretty strong contenders for "the worst suffering known to humanity" - along with any number of slow terminal illnesses being suffered by thousands in and out of hospitals as we speak.)
Re: 2: Do you think the ejecting of the money-lenders is an example of Jesus forcing his teachings?
On a more agreeable note: You and I will probably never agree on _truth_ because you follow John, and I follow Thomas (and the group represented by Valentinus, who focused more on ethics and psychology in the Christ stories than on John's literalist truth-claims and insistence on belief and salvation-through-faith).
But you seem to be clear proof that a person can be a Johannist while at the same time having insight into the spiritual value we can find in the Christ stories, beyond the literal and metaphysical demands of Johannists.
In other words, I think you and I could enjoy that coffee because we'd _both_ be able to meet when talking the ethics and the poetry of (much of) Jesus and the Bible, and enjoy that.
Hm. In much the same way, as many have argued here, discussions of the Bible (and all other religious texts in the world) in religious studies or humanities classrooms could be similarly enjoyable - until somebody dictates that the teacher has to say one is _true_ (instead of "beautiful" or "wise" here and there), and none of the others are. Then we're back to fighting over truth, instead of loving over the lovely or stimulating.
It's past 2 a.m. here, he said by way of excuse. '-)
Posted by Clay Burell on 05/13/2009 @ 10:10AM PT
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On the religious or humanities studies, I agree that when discussing religion in that setting, the only "truth" that needs to be discussed is the fact that a culture or group believes a particular thing, not whether that belief is true, because it is beside the purpose of the class. The purpose is to understand the culture and why they act a certain way much more than why they believe or what they believe.
As to the sacrifice, I do understand your point of view on that. I think the sacrifice is more centered around the pain He experienced unjustly. Christians believe that death is the result of sin, whether our own, or someone else's overflowing. In this case, much like a child dying, it is tragic because it is believed by Christians that Jesus was also sinless like a child. The difference between a child dying and Jesus dying is that Jesus chose to die in attempt to prove that God loves us enough to forgive us. As you suggest, it is more a poetic olive branch from a Creator to His creation than it is a sacrifice, but it still involves some level of sacrifice.
On the money-lenders, I think it was more an act of rooting out hypocrisy than forcing His religious view. The acts that these money-lenders were perpetrating were expressly forbidden in the Old Testament. The Israelites were taught in the Law of Moses and by the Prophets to not require interest from a brother (fellow Israelite). The fact that He was not put on trial immediately after doing so suggests that the religious leaders in Jerusalem agreed with Him.
As to my beliefs of the facts of the life of Jesus, I feel that the various Gospels were from different points of view and were intended to be such. Different people remember different things differently. I have yet to read the Gospel of Thomas, though I have heard a bit of the forward, but I'm more inclined to go with Luke's account over the others because He was a physician, or doctor. Even at that time, doctors were very attentive to detail and were very intelligent people, even though the profession was not as well organized as today. This is not to say I discount the others or consider them less valid. I just consider His to be the most detailed.
Furthermore, Jesus didn't have to always be performing outside the laws of physics with His "miracles." If I were to take a microwave oven (and battery) back to the time of Jesus and make water boil, the people would consider me a miracle worker. Having knowledge of the universe that is available to God to choose from before coming to earth, gave Jesus the ability to choose the knowledge He needed to perform what we would call miracles, but to Him they were just physical manipulation of the universe. It's equally as possible that we could do the same if we understood the universe on the level He does. In fact, He said as much, though in a way that the apostles could understand:
Matthew 17:20
He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you. "
Posted by Chris Meacham on 05/14/2009 @ 08:15AM PT
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Just notice I went a little heavy with the capital H's there. The two in the paragraph about Luke's Gospel were intended to be lower case and refer to Luke.
Posted by Chris Meacham on 05/14/2009 @ 08:26AM PT
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Wow! "Out there" doesn't even begin to describe you Mickey.
And you are so right that the ignorant can be duped into believing something was a miricle. Jesus was a slickster, I'll give him that. Put on a real good medicine show.
Posted by Timothy Odell on 05/14/2009 @ 11:25AM PT
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Mickey
No actually it came from the Bible.. pick up your book and READ....
Many xians loves to say too non believers they took it out of context, to show others Non believers are too dumb to understand the bible.
I understand very well, since I have studied many other religion beliefs... and Many radical xtian uses those same verses to justified their actions towards others. look at History and look at the actions of many radical xians.
nice try Mickey, but it didnt work.
:@)
Posted by Lara Nunes on 05/11/2009 @ 10:27PM PT
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Still you all dodge the facts and the truth. Clay there was only one day of suffering, 3 days dead and alive again. It is to bad our teachers are closed to facts and the beliefs of the majority of this country. 80% of Americans believe in Christianity. If what you teach in Humanities class is so good for our children then why have we dropped from the best educated kids in the World to #34. That ranks us no better than 3rd world countries. You folks hide from the truth with closed minds. The proof of our Lord is plain as day if you look with an open mind. Most non believers are afraid that a sinless life will be no fun. Life is what you make it. We will stand before the Creator on Judgement day. We all have to pay the fine for our sin, unless you believe Jesus died for our sins and paid for fine for our sins. We are all sinners, some are forgiven just for believing in Jesus. It does not cost you a single penny. Our soul lives forever, we all have free will to choose where we want to spend it. God gives us that choice, which is more than Government does. So you can choose to loose your own life if you want. But convincing other people to loose their eternal lives is pretty sick. You can choose to be a looser if you want but don't drag the innocent down. Your attitude is no better than that of a drunk driver that kills a car load innocent people. It is Murder!! I choose not to murder anyone. In fact it is worse than a drunk the kills someone and they loose a few years on this rock. You are killing eternity for our children. That is worse than abortion when the butcher shoves a needle into the head of a fetus while still in the birth canal and vacuums their helpless little brains into a garbage can. Are not you glad your parents did not choose that for you? In fact those that lead children away from the Lord will live in eternity in the worst possible way, with your flesh melting away in the flames forever. Or live in multiple dimensions in eternity like physics tells us we will. A 2 digit IQ should be able to figure that one out. These are the end times, time is short to make the right decision.
Jesus loves us all whether you choose to love him or not. Telling people who not to love is none of your business.
Clay quit your loving your wife. Sorry Clay that is none of my business.
God bless you all, good night and good life to you all.
Posted by Mickey Theade on 05/11/2009 @ 11:59PM PT
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Mickey,
I was wrong. Jesus suffered only one third the amount I claimed he did. Thanks for strengthening my point, first; and second, note how easy it is to write the words "I was wrong." It's no sin to allow yourself to be corrected by facts.
Next: you argue 80% believing something makes it right. That was a pro-slavery argument back in the day. "Fifty million people believing something is true doesn't make it true." - Nietzsche
You speak of proof for those with open eyes. Mine are open: show us proof.
Posted by Clay Burell on 05/13/2009 @ 03:27AM PT
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"Jesus loves us all whether you choose to love him or not."....... because i'm an 'infidel' god will banish me to the eternal fires of hell to suffer and burn for till the end of time... but he loves me?
Posted by Paulino Valenzuela on 05/13/2009 @ 07:30AM PT
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80% of americans are christians! And where exactly did you make that fact up?
And test scores are down because video games and the internet are more fun than books, not because there is no religion in public schools.
And it doesn't take christianity to oppose all but the life-saving abortions. But abortion does not justify religion.
School is not for the teaching of morality, that comes from home. School is for facts, not opinions.
Posted by Timothy Odell on 05/14/2009 @ 11:36AM PT
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This is what has happened to our country since God was kicked out of our Schools. This is a letter from Presidential Candidate Chuck Baldwin. Here is what a Godless curriculum gets us.
First, it was a Missouri Analysis and Information Center (MIAC) report; then
it was a Department of Homeland Security (DHS) report; now it is a New York
congressman's bill. Each of these items, taken on their own, is problematic
enough; taken together they portend "a clear and present danger" to the
liberties of the American people. It is getting very serious now.
As readers may recall, the MIAC report profiled certain people as being
potential violence-prone "militia members": including people who supported
Presidential candidates Ron Paul, Bob Barr, and myself. In addition, anyone
who opposed one or more of the following were also included in the list: the
New World Order, the U.N., gun control, the violation of Posse Comitatus,
the Federal Reserve, the Income Tax, the Ammunition Accountability Act, a
possible Constitutional Convention, the North American Union, the Universal
Service Program, Radio Frequency Identification (RFID), abortion on demand,
or illegal immigration.
The MIAC report prompted a firestorm of protest, and was eventually
rescinded, with the man responsible for its distribution being dismissed
from his position. The DHS report profiled many of the same people included
in the MIAC report, and added returning Iraq and Afghanistan war veterans as
potentially dangerous "extremists."
As I have said before, it is very likely that when all of the opinions and
views of the above lists are counted, 75% or more of the American people
would be included. Yet, these government reports would have law enforcement
personnel to believe we are all dangerous extremists that need to be watched
and guarded against. If this was not bad enough, a New York congressman has
introduced a bill in the House of Representatives to deny Second Amendment
rights to everyone listed above.
According to World Net Daily, May 9, 2009, "A new gun law being considered
in Congress, if aligned with Department of Homeland Security memos labeling
everyday Americans a potential 'threats,' could potentially deny firearms to
pro-lifers, gun-rights advocates, tax protesters, animal rights activists,
and a host of others--any already on the expansive DHS watch list for
potential 'extremism.'
"Rep. Peter King, R-N.Y., has sponsored H.R. 2159, the Denying Firearms and
Explosives to Dangerous Terrorists Act of 2009, which permits the attorney
general to deny transfer of a firearm to any 'known or suspected dangerous
terrorist.' The bill requires only that the potential firearm transferee is
'appropriately suspected' of preparing for a terrorist act and that the
attorney general 'has a reasonable belief' that the gun might be used in
connection with terrorism.
"Gun rights advocates, however, object to the bill's language, arguing that
it enables the federal government to suspend a person's Second Amendment
rights without any trial or legal proof and only upon suspicion of being
'dangerous.'"
WND quotes Gun Owners of America Executive Director Larry Pratt as saying,
"By [DHS] standards, I'm one of [DHS Secretary] Janet Napolitano's
terrorists. This bill would enable the attorney general to put all of the
people who voted against Obama on no-gun lists, because according to the
DHS, they're all potential terrorists. Actually, we could rename this bill
the Janet Napolitano Frenzied Fantasy Implementation Act of 2009."
Pratt was also quoted as saying, "Unbeknownst to us, some bureaucrat in the
bowels of democracy can put your name on a list, and your Second Amendment
rights are toast." He went on to say, "This such an anti-American bill, this
is something King George III would have done."
Now that DHS has established both a list and a lexicon for "extremists," it
looks to Congress to confer upon it police-state-style powers through which
these individuals may be disarmed and eventually done away with. Rep. Peter
King is accommodating this goal with H.R. 2159.
Let me ask a reasonable question: how long does anyone think it would be,
after being profiled by DHS and denied the lawful purchase of firearms, that
those same people would be subjected to gun confiscation? And how long do
you think it would be before DHS began profiling more and more groups of
people, thus subjecting them to gun confiscation?
This was exactly the strategy employed by Adolf Hitler. The Jews were the
first people denied their civil rights--especially the right to own and
possess firearms. Of course, after disarming Jews, the rest of the German
citizenry was likewise disarmed. And we all know where that led.
I'm not sure how many of the American people realize that it was the
attempted confiscation of the colonialists' cache of arms in Concord,
Massachusetts, that started America's War for Independence. Yes, my friends,
it was attempted gun confiscation that triggered (pun intended) the "shot
heard 'round the world." And now it would appear that, once again, a central
government is on the verge of trying to deny the American people their right
to keep and bear arms.
I am told that as of 2004, 50% of the adults in the United States own one or
more firearms, totaling some 270 million privately owned firearms
nationwide. I would venture to say that the vast majority of these gun
owners would find themselves matching the DHS profile of a potential
"extremist." I wonder how many gun owners realize the way they are now being
targeted by their government, and just how serious--and how close--the
threat of gun confiscation has become?
If one doubts the intention of the elitists in government today to deny the
American people their right to keep and bear arms, consider what former
Secretary of State Henry Kissinger is purported to have said just a couple
of weeks ago. Kissinger attended a high-level meeting with Russian President
Medvedev that also included former Secretaries of State James Baker and
George Shultz; former Secretary of Defense William Perry; and former Senator
Sam Nunn. Included in the discussions was Kissinger's assertion that the
American people were now ready to accept a "New Global Order." He is also
reported to have told Medvedev, "By September we'll have confiscated all
privately owned guns so it really doesn't matter what we do, we'll still be
in charge." (Even though the national news media has not reported this
statement, the Internet is abuzz with Kissinger having said it. Whether
Kissinger actually made that statement or not, he, and rest of his ilk, have
repeatedly called for a New World Order, in which there will be no
constitutional protection for the right to keep and bear arms.)
This leads to a very serious question: how many of America's gun owners
would allow their government to deny them gun ownership? Further, how many
would passively sit back and allow their guns to be confiscated?
As humbly and meekly as I know how to say it: as for me and my house, gun
confiscation is the one act of tyranny that crosses the line; debate,
discourse, discussion, and peaceful dissent cease and desist at that point.
I say again, it is getting very serious now.
God help us all. Without our Lord there is no FREEDOM. Our FREE choice is gone without Jesus Christ.
Posted by Mickey Theade on 05/12/2009 @ 10:04AM PT
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Mickey, let me get this straight: Keeping God in schools would keep more guns in the homes?
That seems to be what you're suggesting.
I can believe Yahweh being pro-gun. He loved a good war in the O.T.
But it's harder to see Jesus as a Second Amendment, right to bear arms fanatic.
Enlighten me on the connection between this screed and the teachings of Jesus?
Posted by Clay Burell on 05/13/2009 @ 03:37AM PT
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Mickey,
I'm going to have to agree with Clay on this one.
Paul taught to be submissive to the governing authorities. Jesus was a pacifist who didn't even allow His followers to defend Him at death. If He disapproved of the use of swords, why would He approve of guns? He did not take up arms and free John the Baptist from prison when He knew that his death was imminent. The most profound statement a Christian can make is:
"I am willing to die for Christ, and because of that, I am willing to not defend myself because it might hurt you."
There's a popular phrase among Christians: What Would Jesus Do? He would die for crimes that are unjustly attributed to Him, rather than defend Himself.
Posted by Chris Meacham on 05/13/2009 @ 09:30AM PT
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Mickey, do you take seriously the claim that Henry Kissinger said "we" will have confiscated all privately owned guns in the US by September? First of all, who's "we"? He hasn't been in the government for years. When he was, there's not a single quote I ever heard about private gun ownership -- doesn't seem to be one of his issues. Therefore, this portion of the letter you quoted reminds me of Mark Twain's observation: "The thirteenth chime of a clock is not only false in itself, but also casts grave doubt on the meaning of the preceding twelve." That is, to make the point plainly, your repeating the claim that "some sinister anti-Christian New World Order threatens American democracy" is outlandish enough to cast major doubt on everything else you said. Unless, of course, you actually have some verifiable evidence. Your interpretation of the Christian Scriptures does not meet this requirement. (You could fill several bookshelves with physicists' and philosophers' wrangling over the complexity of the universe and its implications, and come out through the same door by which you entered.) Well...?
Posted by Doug Samuelson on 05/12/2009 @ 12:49PM PT
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Yes Doug I am serious. Time will tell Doug. Kissinger is of the Elite NWO, he is Luciferian, these facts are easily accessible online. It really is hard to believe, I admit that. Google this:kissinger nwo cfr Bilderberg. Our Presidents are only Puppets to these people, the Bankers. They have stolen over 14 Trillion in the last 6 months according to AP and Bloomberg. These are the same money changers that Jesus threw out of the House of God 2000 years ago. He will be here soon to do it again. Only time will tell Doug, be prepared for the worst. Lara is preparing properly by growing her own food to stay out of the FEMA camps. Spiritually we disagree but in the secular world she is RIGHT ON TRACK. Thank you LARA. You can listen to Alex Jones at infowars.com or prisonplanet.com to get the facts. He tells you where you can find these facts himself, that is the truth. Do not be deceived in the End Times. Jesus spoke these words more than any other concerning the end times. You may not believe in Satan but our leaders do and they worship him like I worship Jesus. Peace brother, time is short, find the truth Doug and it will set you free.
Posted by Mickey Theade on 05/12/2009 @ 01:54PM PT
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I have just added you to the Department of Homeland Security watch list.
Posted by Timothy Odell on 05/14/2009 @ 12:13PM PT
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You can watch a video on youtube the will clarify with proof who runs the USA at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAaQNACwaLw
Posted by Mickey Theade on 05/12/2009 @ 02:07PM PT
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I found a Site for a bible believer
who runs the USA
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/bushlist.htm
Posted by Lara Nunes on 05/12/2009 @ 04:04PM PT
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I checked this site. WOW! According to these guys, the Jews run EVERYTHING. I'll concede there was a group of Jewish neocons who were very influential in the Defense Department in W's first term, but these guys seem to have looked everywhere they could and classified any organization with one Jewish-sounding name in a prominent position as part of the conspiracy. MITRE Corporation? The Heritage Foundation? American Enterprise Institute? Human Rights Watch? C'mon, give us a break.
Posted by Doug Samuelson on 05/12/2009 @ 11:10PM PT
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Doug
lol
Why do you think I said" I found a site for bible believers"
I am not a bible believer..... lol
peace
Posted by Lara Nunes on 05/14/2009 @ 12:58PM PT
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Lara, it did occur to me that you were being sarcastic. Still, this goes way beyond the usual Bible-thumping stuff. These guys are loony tunes! And too nasty-sounding to be funny.
Posted by Doug Samuelson on 05/14/2009 @ 01:12PM PT
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Spiritually :concern with things of the spirit.
Is it possible to be spiritual without being religious? Conversely, is it possible to be religious without being spiritual?
Spirituality is the personal relationship independent of religion, in a self directed and personal inner path. spirituality may be adapted and modeled after the sacred practices of a number of different religions or none at all.
So yes Mikey I am a spiritual person of my own independent path.
Your God is suppose to be a personal path, not a path to invoke and harm innocent children on a belief that has no proof other then the bible.
Mikey said:God help us all. Without our Lord there is no FREEDOM. Our FREE choice is gone without Jesus Christ.
Lara said : With your God, there is no Freedom for non believers, our free choice is gone cause your radical ideas are making sure we dont have that freedom and plus you are preaching to people here to find truth before the world ends.
See how you dont support equality for all people who are not believers of your totured dead God on a stick.
Maybe you need to practice what you preach Mikey....
BTW Mikey your Jesus said in Matthew 6:5-6.
5"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
Posted by Lara Nunes on 05/12/2009 @ 03:56PM PT
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Lara, that was lovely. thanks.
Posted by patrick smith on 05/12/2009 @ 06:28PM PT
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you are welcome Patrick ....
peace
Posted by Lara Nunes on 05/12/2009 @ 08:31PM PT
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BY ZEUS!!!
I didn't know it was possible to be that monumentally stupid. Mickey, you wouldn't know truth and reality even if it hit you in the head with the force of a 500 megaton warhead. It is the willful and joyous reveling in ignorance displayed by you that is ruining this country. It is the willful demands for special treatment and special pleadings that are eroding this country and have dropped us below 3rd world countries when it comes to effectively educating out children.
Reality check. Teaching evolution was illegal prior to the 'cold war,' WWII, etc... Then we suddenly had this huge 'enemy' to fight and the standards were changed and critical thinking and science were made priorities. Within a few years we were the top of the heap and graduated more scientists and engineers then any other country.
That lead to a moving away from religion because people had the mental skills to defend themselves from the brainwashing of religion and could recognize it for the evil it is. However, the religious Fungelical-fancist nut-balls also saw a problem with that. Smarter, better educated kids didn't turn to religion when they were down, they did something about it themselves.
They started with fear mongering and propoganda and quickly graduated into political influence. From their they begain an all out war on education and the real values upon which this country was based. They began trying to re-write history and have had some success in that, were it not for the diligence of people who actually care about this country and what it was founded for. It's quite possible that we would not know that the whole "Christian Nation" thing is a bold faced, keep speaking the lie and it'll become true, high level nuclear waste, LIE!!!
As to your arguments using Quantum Physics and the multi-dimensional nature of reality. You need a serious dose of reality. None of the conclusions you come to cannot also be filled in with "Bob the Great Universe spanning Hippo," "Joe the Eternal Jackalope," and any other supernatural thing your imagination can come up with.
Your lack of understanding of science does not qualify you to make broad claims about science, and it most certainly doens't qualify you to make conclusions from theoretical physics that are not implied by what the actual experts say.
There is nothing wrong with saying "I don't Know." The ability to recognize that you don't know, and to be able to recognize the gaps in your knowledge is a strength and the indicator of a wise and knowledgeable person. The proclamation of Knowing withing justification and claiming, "you just need faith." Is absurd and ridiculous and shows your blatant and wanton ignorance.
As to why I as an Atheist care, its really quite simple. You have the right to believe whatever Bat-crap stupid and crazy things you want. However when that encroaches on me and my rights, and those of my daughter who isn't old enough yet to defend herself against your ignorance and lies, that's where I start caring what you believe. Keep it to yourself, injure only yourself, more power to you. Violate my rights, try and force your beliefs on me, into my bedroom, my life, and public schools that are there to educate children from all walks of life and faith. You make yourself a tick on society that needs to get burned out.
This includes beliefs that injure the children of the believers, things like Scientology, Jehovah's witnesses, and any others that would sacrifice their children on the alter of prayer rather then getting them medical attention until they're already dead. If you don't want to see a doctor or eat nothing till you are dead that's fine, you don't have the right to make that decision for a child who doesn't get the choice.
Posted by Damon Ballard on 05/12/2009 @ 04:17PM PT
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Damon no one is trying to push there beliefs on you except our government. Atheism is a religion. It is a belief system like Christianity. You have to acknowledge this however, there are good Christians and bad Christians, there are good atheists and bad atheists, good cops and bad cops. etc.. This is supposed to be Country of free choices. You have the right to not listen. It is a shame that all beliefs are not allowed to taught to our Children. They are human beings and should be allowed the same rights as you and have freedom of choice.
I was wondering though what you think happens to an atheists when they die?
Jehovah's Witnesses were Started by Freemasons along with The Mormons and I think Scientology also. Freemasonry is Satanic. Whether you believe that or not does not matter, THEY DO!
If you want to have a well educated daughter I suggest you home school as our education system has dropped to 34th in the World from 1st when I went School. Your daughter has NO CHOICE in a public school. The Feds actually pay school districts $500 per month for every child they get on Riddlin, (SPEED) Thank you for your comments.
Posted by Mickey Theade on 05/12/2009 @ 05:43PM PT
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Well, Mickey, you're absolutely right about one thing: some of your assertions are really hard to believe! I'm perfectly willing to bet that the world as it is will still be here for at least several more years; that this recession will end within two years, probably sooner; that those of us who have guns will still have them after September; that the LDS Church (the Mormons) was not founded by Freemasons; that the Federal Government is not paying school districts to get kids on Ritalin; and that the Freemasons, the Luciferians, the Bilderbergers, the Bavarian Illuminati and whatever other "things that go boomp i' the nicht" may be out there according to some Web site are not running the world, or about to. Again: got any _credible_ evidence?
Posted by Doug Samuelson on 05/12/2009 @ 07:51PM PT
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Mickey, you HAVE your Jesus Christ, as much as anyone does (though I really people wouldn't just append "Christ" to the name as though it's a surname). I DON'T WANT HIM! Not unless he knocks on my door and comes in for coffee. I don't want my children being brainwashed with tax money in schools, either. They can be exposed through friends, they can go to church and Sunday schools an learn what they have to teach, and they can ask preachers, priests, me and their Grandmother and others for information, plus they can read. The values my son and daughter-in-law teach them regarding moral behavior are those I taught my son; beyond that reasonable and necessary societal behavior and those personal commitments, they can make their own choices. A religious rule, when secular law is religious law, is ALWAYS a dictatorship of men. Find any example you want. That's part of the reason for the saparation of church and state. Christianity was NEVER "kicked out of schools". It was never there to begin with. Any child who wishes may pray at any time. The schools, however, shall NOT require prayer or teach it. Or do you invite other religions in for equal time? No - teach the structure and other info of religions, how they affect history, etc., but quit pissing and moaning about how exclusion of Christianity in the schools as a monopoly on Truth is an attack on it and it's followers; it's a crock, a deliberately manufactured, and false, divisive element that keeps people who might otherwise resist our would-be overlords instead apart.
Ian
Posted by Ian MacLeod on 05/12/2009 @ 08:02PM PT
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Keys are sticking: that was "grandchildren"
Ian
Posted by Ian MacLeod on 05/12/2009 @ 08:04PM PT
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Atheism is a religion? No Atheism is not a religion Mikey... damn you need to stop reading the crap you get your information.
Atheism does not believe in a GOD or any kind.
Atheism excludes believing in things that are “sacred” for the purpose of worshiping gods.
Athesis does not do rituals like praying and celebrating a God.
Atheists have moral codes, but they don’t believe that those codes are derived from any supernatural origin.
Athesis does not express religious feelings.
Jehovah's Witnesses were Started by Freemasons ? .... No that beliefs founder was probaly a mason, but doesnt means the actually freemasons community start it.
The Mormons were Started by Freemasons ?....No that beliefs founder was probaly a mason, but doesnt means the actually freemasons community start it.
Scientology were Started by Freemasons ?....No that beliefs founder was probaly a mason, but doesnt means the actually freemasons community start it.
Freemasonry is Satanic. Whether you believe that or not does not matter, THEY DO!
So in truth,atheism lacks every one of these characteristics of religion. In other words, Mickey you can not call Athesism a religion.
Freemasonry is Satanic? NO They are NOT.. but it's awlful weird Mikey that you would profess this when you Believe in SATAN and Demons since it is written in your book of holes. and You do worship it since you believe they are real and does control your world..
and well Since your God created both good and evil.
And Lucifer according to the bible Isaiah 14:12 he was a Morning star.. and in Rev 22:16 Jesus calls himself a Morning star.
meaning they are one and the same.
With great good there is great evil
With great evil there is great good.
To have them both is to have balanced in the universe.
To be with one side,is to create chaos.
Peace
he was Gods First and most beautiful favorite angel. So truthfully Your God also worshipped him as well.. And well Jesus came along and in Revelations he is also called The Morning Star.
Isaiah 14:12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!" originally meaning "the shining one"
Posted by Lara Nunes on 05/12/2009 @ 08:15PM PT
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The religion of one age is the literary entertainment of the next. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
Posted by Paulino Valenzuela on 05/12/2009 @ 10:51PM PT
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Yes Paulino that is true, Jesus is the Champion of forgiveness. Paul murdered many Christians, was forgiven and became one of the Greatest Champions of Jesus Christ.
Lara here are all the passages containing Morning Star in KJV Bible http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=morning+star&searchtype=all&version1=9&spanbegin=1&spanend=73
I can not find where you get your interpretation. Would you please advise me, here are all the passages:
Nehemiah 4:21
So we laboured in the work: and half of them held the spears from the rising of the morning till the stars appeared.
Nehemiah 4:20-22 (in Context) Nehemiah 4 (Whole Chapter)Job 38:7
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 38:6-8 (in Context) Job 38 (Whole Chapter)Amos 5:8
Seek him that maketh the seven stars and Orion, and turneth the shadow of death into the morning, and maketh the day dark with night: that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: The LORD is his name:
Amos 5:7-9 (in Context) Amos 5 (Whole Chapter)Revelation 2:28
And I will give him the morning star.
Revelation 2:27-29 (in Context) Revelation 2 (Whole Chapter)Revelation 22:16
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright andmorning star.
Revelation 22:15-17 (in Context) Revelation 22 (Whole Chapter)
What jumps out me is there are many meanings for Morning Star.
Please get back to me. I won't be able to get back to you till later as I am planting my Survival Garden today.
Peace to you all.Mickey
PS. Please remember Angels can not create anything, they can only copy as mankind is unable to create anything from nothing. Yahweh with his voice created the Universe, aka. The Big Bang. A single simple cell is more complicated than an aircraft carrier. Can an aircraft carries be created by chance, no, it has a creator also.
Posted by Mickey Theade on 05/13/2009 @ 09:09AM PT
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Doug please Google: freemason mormon founder.
Posted by Mickey Theade on 05/13/2009 @ 09:19AM PT
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This is the second time I've come back with out intending to but I feel that the Freemason bashers need to be straightened out.
Anyone who petitions to become a mason must attest that he is not an atheist. When he is interviewed by an appointed investigating committee he is again asked if he is an atheist, if his answer is in the affirmative he will not be accepted. If he is accepted one of the first questions put to him at his initiation is; "in whom do you put your trust"? To which the answer must be "in God"! On the altar in the center of every lodge is the holy book that pertains to the particular society where the lodge is located. As the USA is a predominantly Christian society the masonic lodges in this country invariably have the Holy Bible on their altars. In a predominately Moslem country it would be the Koran in a predominately Jewish country it would be the Torah etc. Whatever scripture it may be it is referred to as the Book of Rules because every religion that acknowledges a Supreme Being has a code for righteous living. which coincidentally Christians, Moslems and Jews all share the; Ten Commandments. I believe the Veda is the scripture on the altar in Hindu lodges, although someone with more extensive knowledge on foreign masonry can probably help out there. Oh! and before Mickey or one of his equally ignorant cohorts jump in with "the Hindus are heathens and don't have a Supreme Being" they do; his name is Shiva.
The code of Freemasonry is: Friendship, Morality and Brotherly Love, their motto: we take good men and make them better! Freemasonry and associated organizations fund and /or sponsor more charities than any Christian group, many of them anonymously, with no agenda; in other words they are not saying "look at the good works we do, please come and join us".
The two predominent Christian groups that are anti- Freemason are the Roman Catholics and the radical Fundamental/Evangelist Protestants, now there's some strange bedfellows! The Catholics are still on guilt trip from the horrendous murder of Jacque de Molay Grand Master of the Knights Templar. The Radical Protestants because the Freemasons do not discriminate between religions and/or denominations. My question is why don't the Catholics and Evangelists get along? After all they're both selling the same brand of snake oil, they just put different labels on their bottles.
Posted by michael sawyer on 05/13/2009 @ 01:00PM PT
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Clay I appreciate your responses as you are the Moderator and instigator of this forum and I am pleased that we allowed to agree to disagree. This is free speech and I approve of that. I believe that ALL ideas should be allowed to in the classroom. Yahweh demands freedom of choice in all matters, kinda like free speech in America. Which in my opinion is being take away from us. Under his law everyone is allowed free choice. Consequences for those choices are determined by laws however. In this world and the spiritual world.
Michael I thank you for bringing the Religion of Freemasonry. You are right about Masons not being allowed to be Atheists. They must have a God. Yahweh says there are many Gods and we are allowed to worship any except the Creator. If you could Google these terms: Freemason Jesus Christ, there are numerous documents there with some important facts. The name of Jesus Christ is strictly forbidden to be used in the Masonic Temple. I personally confirmed with a Mason but you might want to Google: Say the name of Jesus in a masonic temple. It is pretty interesting what comes up. The Word God is allowed or even required in a Masonic Temple. The word God covers many intensities including False or Pagan Gods. Satan is the God of this World. I am not sure why Yahweh allows him that. I guess we will not know that until we come face to face with him and ask that question. Jesus never spoke of anything in Secrecy, unlike The Masons, Skull and Bones, Trilateral Commission, Counsel on Foreign Relations, The Bilderberg Group and the list goes on and is quite long. King George Bush and his family, along with John Kerry are members of the Skull and Bones at Yale University, they are Satanic. Prescot Bush arranged financing for Adolf Hitler in World War II. This is all mainstream news. You can go to Youtube and search for: Bush Satanic Hand Signs. Watch the videos and see it with your own eyes. No faith is needed to believe that. You might be surprised to see some other big names there. Believe me Michael I was a mess for weeks after learning these truths and the deceptions we have all fallen for. Right on American Idol last night Paula Abdul give a both hands satanic sign, along with Adam Lambert during the Rock and Roll edition. It is right in our faces, hidden in plain sight.
Catholics, not the misled Flock but The Pope and his perverted Priests are truly disgusting, Rick Warren member of the CFR. Pat Robertson, Freemason, the list goes on and on. Google Famous Freemasons.
I hope that helps you understand evil and secrecy. The nameless God in Freemasonry along with many Organised Christian Religions is Lucifer, the Prince of the Air. When you finally understand that the Christians that have been starting all the Wars and killing the innocent are not true Christians but Luciferians lying about their God, the Light of Yahweh will shine bright in your life. God bless you all for reading this.
Posted by Mickey Theade on 05/13/2009 @ 02:33PM PT
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Oral Roberts, 33rd Degree Freemason
there's a satanist for you
Posted by Timothy Odell on 05/14/2009 @ 03:45PM PT
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I really mean it this time, but before I go there's one more thing to put in its proper light; the reason that the name of Jesus is not mentioned in a Masonic Lodge is the same reason Mohammed, Moses and all the other entities that represent religions are not mentioned in the lodge . When a Mason enters a lodge he is required to leave his religion and politics outside.
Does anyone know what Mickey Theade is smoking? What scares me is that he might have kids or bring some into the world one day. Pity the kids and pity society on which he unleashes them.
In parting I feel it appropriate to quote a famous Greek philosopher; 'Where ignorance is bliss it is folly to be wise".
Posted by michael sawyer on 05/13/2009 @ 03:20PM PT
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Mikey is one of those people who needs a swift kick over a clift of dung... If you can not find the verses only proves your knowledge of your own bible...
I know what the bible says.. you forget I was a brainwashed idiot at one time like you when i was a christian, but I woke up and know it was bloody lies.
Mickey no one is reading your preaching stuff, since no one cares about that book of holes.
BTW you are not suppose to preach to non believers, only to others who minds are in the wastefulness of nothing.
Posted by Lara Nunes on 05/13/2009 @ 03:37PM PT
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Lara and Michael it is funny how you folks never respond to the facts that you find when I ask you to Google certain terms concerning the False statements that you are making. When you cannot counter my points you ignore them and call me names. That is mature. My children are in their thirties now and I am proud of them. They are not perfect, but none of us are.
The Freemasons are what I say they are. This is the oath of a 3rd degree Mason. Notice how loving it is, especially the last paragraph. They are so loving and good. One mistake and they cut your bowels out. This is Satanic. NO MERCY
Blue Lodge Master Mason Oath
Typically Taken by 3rd Degree Freemasons – (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1964 A.D.)
The blindfolded candidate kneels at the altar, places both hands on the volume of sacred law, the square and compass, and repeats after the worshipful master: I, _________, of my own free will and accord, in the presence of Almighty God, and this Worshipful Lodge, erected to Him and dedicated to the holy St. John, do hereby and hereon most solemnly and sincerely promise and swear, that I will hail, ever conceal, and never reveal any of the secrets, arts, parts, point or points, of the Master Mason's Degree, to any person or persons whomsoever, except that it be a true and lawful brother of this Degree, or in a regularly constituted Lodge of Master Masons, nor unto him, or them, until by strict trial, due examination, or lawful information, I shall have found him, or them, as lawfully entitled to the same as I am myself. I furthermore promise and swear, that I will stand to and abide by all laws, rules, and regulations of the Master Masons Degree, and of the Lodge of which I may hereafter become a member, as far as the same shall come to my knowledge; and that I will ever maintain and support the Constitution, laws, and edicts of the Grand Lodge under which the same shall be holden. Further, that I will acknowledge and obey all due signs and summons sent to me from a Master Masons' Lodge, or given me by a brother of that Degree, if within the length of my cable tow. Further, that I will always aid and assist all poor, distressed, worthy Master Masons, their widows and orphans, knowing them to be such, as far as their necessities may require, and my ability permit, without material injury to myself and family. Further, that I will keep a worthy brother Master Mason's secrets inviolable, when communicated to and received by me as such, murder and treason excepted. Further, that I will not aid, nor be present at, the initiation, passing, or raising of a woman, an old man in his dotage, a young man in his nonage, an atheist, a madman, or fool, knowing them to be such. Further, that I will not sit in a Lodge of Clandestine-made Masons, nor converse on the subject of Masonry with a clandestine-made Mason, nor one who has been expelled or suspended from a Lodge, while under that sentence, knowing him or them to be such. Further, I will not cheat, wrong, nor defraud a Master Masons' Lodge, nor a brother of this Degree, knowingly, nor supplant him in any of his laudable undertakings, but will give him due and timely notice, that he may ward off all danger. Further, that I will not knowingly strike a brother Master Mason, or otherwise do him personal violence in anger, except in the necessary defense of my family or property. Further, that I will not have illegal carnal intercourse with a Master Mason's wife, his mother, sister, or daughter knowing them to be such, nor suffer the same to be done by others, if in my power to prevent. Further, that I will not give the Grand Masonic word, in any other manner or form than that in which I shall receive it, and then in a low breath. Further, that I will not give the Grand Hailing Sign of distress except in case of the most imminent danger, in a just and lawful Lodge, or for the benefit of instruction; and if ever I should see it given, or hear the words accompanying it, by a worthy brother in distress, I will fly to his relief, if there is a greater probability of saving his life than losing my own. All this I most solemnly, sincerely promise and swear, with a firm and steady resolution to perform the same, without any hesitation, myself,under no less penalty than that of having my body severed in two, my bowels taken from thence and burned to ashes, the ashes scattered before the four winds of heaven, that no more remembrance might be had of so vile and wicked a wretch as I would be, should I ever,knowingly, violate this my Master Mason's obligation. So help me God, and keep me steadfast in the due performance of the same.
SO YOU WANTA BE A MASON OR PROMOTE THIS TYPE OF GOODNESS.
Have fun folks, this is real blood and guts stuff. It sounds like HUMAN SACRIFICE TO ME.
MAYBE YOU WOULD LIKE YOUR CHILDREN TAKING THIS OATH, THEY HAVE NO OBLIGATION TO YOU THE PARENT, THEY ARE SWORN TO DEATH, EVEN YOUR DEATH OVER ANOTHER MASON. THIS IS SOOOO LOVING.
Posted by Mickey Theade on 05/13/2009 @ 05:56PM PT
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This thread is devolving into a pretty tiresome flame war. Time to close comments?
Posted by Clay Burell on 05/13/2009 @ 06:39PM PT
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I wish that there had been a few more posts from some more level headed Christians, who were willing to actually discuss the issue. Mr. Theade has perpetuated the stereotype that I try so hard to disperse. To my further annoyance, Ms. Nunes and Mr. Starchenkov have been perpetuating the opposing stereotype, as well.
There is, however, a point where the debate has to end because the crowd has been polarized to the point where the debate can no longer be heard.
Posted by Chris Meacham on 05/14/2009 @ 07:29AM PT
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Chris Meacham, i agree with you sort of and like Michael Sawyer i gotta git back to work, but ....
The discourse that seems civil but laced with chrispy christian dogma is as offensive as all the strung together words that chrispies demonize.
The polarization occurs because of the slanted chrispy postulations that are abusive to me, my child, my friends and on and on. Now here i'm really trying to bridle my style of articulation; nevertheless i like what you wrote , but find it interesting that continual christian drum beating is tolerated in place of facts or substantive discourse which leaves me wondering if Clays complaints aren't disingenuous and tainted with christian leaning.
Now for the most part i enjoy your comments and Clays, but be annoyed and i too am annoyed with the christian filter that only extrudes effluvia rather than go in a substantive direction.
Maybe once in conversation with a nut (sorry i'm thinking of Mickey, sorry Mickey) it is a lot like Brear Rabbit and Tar Baby.
So with that i will try to go back to work to other focusses and leave the christian predators to their devices, hmmm , but i'll read and find human discourse ever so fascinating.
But your call is appreciated , but still i think that the chrispy predators are so pervasive in demonization that it should be recognized that one or two references to their stupid religion is enough.
So with you, i hope people with get off their dip-wat christian soap boxes of corporal mortification and get on with some discussion instead ot assinine prostelization. (look it up).
Fred4eric Starchenkovenner
Posted by Frederic Starchenkov... on 05/14/2009 @ 03:40PM PT
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Good grief. I can't believe I read this whole thread, only to find that only about a dozen individuals, most like robots programmed to a single view, rehash their obsessed beliefs and deluge us with a vitriolic panoply of myths, conspiracy theories, prejudices and self-deceptions, connected up like a demented tinkertoy with no reality check in sight. A couple of voices of reason find a perilous foothold in this swamp (thank you, Damon).
Ideas not based in reality are like brain viruses: they take on a life of their own and fight for survival like a cornered rat. But there is only one Reality. In that framework we could debate intelligently to get closer and closer to how things really are. The earth is not flat. There are not only 4 elements. The earth is not 6000 years old. We have telescopes to see almost to the beginning of the Universe. We have microscopes to show us the tiniest building blocks of matter. We can search for and find ever more knowledge, get closer and closer to the "big picture" of reality. And alongside that are a number of our fellow humans whose brains are still colonized by dark-age notions and misunderstandings, who cling to unreason while yearning to be right.
Friends, your freedom ends where mine begins. Your "beliefs" have no place in public classrooms except possibly in a laboratory specimen dish. Any belief that requires faith, rather than standing up under examination by reason in the light of day, is the antithesis of knowledge and wisdom. Such ideas are dangerous to the survival of our species, sending men into battle to commit atrocities and setting brothers at each other's throats.
That the faith-following residents of three states, through their sheer numbers, should determine the content and spin of school books for the entire nation, boggles the mind. Truth is truth, not subject to a vote of special interests.
America was invaded, settled, conquered, "founded", by people who were looking for new wealth and resources, and to get away from excessive interference with their belief systems, and to escape excessive taxation, and by undesirables happily exported from their native lands. Let us not delude ourselves with idyllic fairytales of Christian homogeneity and wanting religious tolerance. The early religious Americans were highly intolerant. So, apparently, are today's.
Church and State are Constitutionally construed to be separate, neither interfering with the other. And for the fundamentalists, here is a further point. Your Jesus reportedly said, "Render onto Caesar what is Caesar's, and unto God what is God's." And never the twain shall meet. Others' pursuit of happiness is not yours to ordain. Your absence of control over others is not a diminishing of your freedom. Hands off!
As an atheist, I am content to know that when I die, that is the end, no consciousness remaining, the plug is pulled, no afterlife. And that's why it is so important to make this life count, because you get no second chance. Leave the world just a little better than you found it, a little cleaner, more peaceful, a few more people a little happier, and a little more truth and wisdom discovered to pass on to the next generation. Be a stepping stone, not a stumbling block. And watch out for those brain viruses.Posted by Kate Jones on 05/14/2009 @ 03:09AM PT
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Dear Change.org submitters,
i am going to agree with Clay Burell, that the conversation has been somewhat perverted, though i i will attribute and contend that the entity causing that perversion lies with religious mental staight jacket dogma.
Nevertheless, i agree with Clay that for the intended purposes the threads may have, intereseting-ly gotten off track, but revealing-ly so.
And, as with Michael Sawyer, i wish to read new voices and therefore will turn to other work.
But to all, even Mickey, i exist with my best wishes and thanks to Clay Burell for a stimulating blog.
Namaste all,
Frederic Starchenkovenner
Posted by Frederic Starchenkov... on 05/14/2009 @ 05:11AM PT
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Kate, you have spoken well. i wish you could have entered this debate much earlier. You are a true Liberal (broadminded person) that understands what freedom and liberty means under our constitution. The other atheists in this conversation have chosen personal attack when they could not document their beliefs. I have many atheists friends that are good people as you definitely appear to be. Frederic has chosen personal attacks when his logic did not prevail. I just want freedom and equality for all. Creation has been thrown out of our schools over the non scientifically proven theory on evolution. Most of the folks in this thread want only their beliefs taught in schools, even though their ideas are not what the majority believe. I call this tyranny. Kinda like George Bush winning the election with the fewest votes. Fairness for all and the right to choose. Best wishes to you all, especially you Kate, you are cool.
Posted by Mickey Theade on 05/14/2009 @ 08:29AM PT
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Mickey,
I'm a bit frustrated over evolution myself. I don't mind it being taught in school as much as you, because the theory does fit the evidence as the evidence is currently understood. The theory even adds understanding to the medical and biological fields which would not be as successful without a theory similar to it.
You need to be patient. How long did Christ wait for the people of Israel to be ready for His arrival?
The truth is the truth, regardless of who believes it. If the evolutionary theory is incorrect, then new evidence will eventually be presented, in large amounts, that disagrees with it.
Remember: Science is as evolutionary as the theory. At one point scientists thought that animals spontaneously generated. They thought the world was flat. They thought that the way to cure a person of a disease was to bleed out the "bad" blood.
Things will change if things need to change. Just be patient.
Posted by Chris Meacham on 05/14/2009 @ 08:44AM PT
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKhzGrZOI9E
Posted by Mickey Theade on 05/14/2009 @ 10:19AM PT
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Clay
Your Article is a great piece of work and it is great you have placed it here for all too see .
But I like to say, since everyone here has expressed their opinion on this article and it has gone over board, but to say the least...
" Opinions are like assholes everyone has them".
If Mikey and few people think their bible is fact.. then continue on that blinded notions, but the rest of us who has our own opinions.. do a civil right to allow us to believe our way.
This article is the very fact on how people views on the subject is really important and why the future of the children education is very important to all of us, as well.
Preaching the bible should stay at home and church. Education is taught at school.
I am hoping the representives of Texas will follow the Constitution of Separation of Church and State.
I bid you all peace ....
Posted by Lara Nunes on 05/14/2009 @ 11:00AM PT
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Peace brothers and sisters and Aloha.
PS. Timothy tell your mommy.
Posted by Mickey Theade on 05/14/2009 @ 04:08PM PT
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OK Mickey, wanna explain that comment. Wanting to take this to a more personal level? Well I don't wanna' hurt your feelings so I'll just let that go.
Posted by Timothy Odell on 05/15/2009 @ 01:03PM PT
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OK, I checked a couple of Web sites about the alleged link between Freemasonry and the Mormons. I'm still not buying it. I grew up in Nevada. We had a lot of Mormons there. I was in DeMolay. I don't think we had a single Mormon member. As I recall, the LDS Church prohibited its members from belonging to Masonic organizations because the creeds were too different.
As for the Masonic oath, I read it carefully. What initiates are required to do sounds pretty reasonable. The stuff about what happens if you violate the oath sounds like "If I lie, may I be struck dead" or (Psalm 137) “If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning. If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth, if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy.” In other words, it doesn't seem to me to imply that anyone is actually going to do any of that stuff to anyone else in the event of a violation.
So, in short, the conspiracy theories don't sway me. I'm firmly against writing religious points of view (including my own, and I do have some) into public school textbooks. I am pretty sure this opinion places me in agreement with the Constitution. The place to teach religion to your kids is your home and, if it fits, your church, synagogue, mosque, ashram, tribal council, coven, or whatever. Public school curricula should focus on what is widely accepted as known, how to check what you hear or see, and how to think critically about what it all means. Maybe a few lessons on polite, mutually respectful discourse wouldn't hurt, either.
Posted by Doug Samuelson on 05/14/2009 @ 07:26PM PT
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very succinct, clear, and respectful of others. thanks, doug. are you a published writer? i like the way you think and would enjoy reading more.
peace,patrick
Posted by patrick smith on 05/15/2009 @ 07:22AM PT
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Thank you. In fact, I do publish regularly. Go to http://www.informs.org and click the link for "OR/MS Today," the organization's bimonthly news magazine. I write the "ORacle" column and frequent features. And thanks again for your interest and compliments.
Posted by Doug Samuelson on 05/15/2009 @ 09:00AM PT
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This is for Doug; Doug I have been trying to get a book published for two years the title is MY HERESY, the sub-title is A Refutation of Religions. It took four years to write and involved a great deal of research. The only sources I can find want money up front; money which I don't have. If you know of some way that I can get my book out there maybe you can pass it on. I have enjoyed your comments, they have been a beacon of sanity in sea of idiocy.
Posted by michael sawyer on 05/15/2009 @ 10:56AM PT
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Thank you. There are two ways to get published: get a publisher to buy it (preferable) or self-publish through a publisher who just produces the book, at your expense, and doesn't do anything significant to help market it. If neither of the above works for you, you might try pulling out one especially good part and submiting it to a magazine as a feature article. Writer's Market, available at most bookstores, is a good guide to which magazines tend to take what. ou can also try looking for writers' clubs in your community, or writing courses at colleges -- some of the people you'll meet there know editors and agents. They'll also have good ideas about how to sell your material. Sorry I can't be more help, but believe me, if I knew a better approach, I'd have several books of my own available at your bookstores already.
Posted by Doug Samuelson on 05/15/2009 @ 12:31PM PT
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By the way, i don't know nearly as much about Scientology as I do about the LDS Church, but my impression is that L. Ron Hubbard, the founder of Scientology, owed much more of his thinking to science fiction than to Masonry. Some stories have it that the proceeds from a couple of his more successful sci-fi novels financed the start of the church. Certainly Scientology's teachings about alien invaders trying to make us all submissive using psychoactive chemicals have no basis or counterpart, as far as I've ever heard, in Masonry.
Posted by Doug Samuelson on 05/15/2009 @ 12:36PM PT
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry_and_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movementhttp://freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-masonry/anti-masonry03.html
Posted by Mickey Theade on 05/15/2009 @ 01:21PM PT
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While a number of early church members, such as Heber C. Kimball, were Masons prior to becoming Mormons, Joseph Smith Jr. and the Latter-Day Saint movement had no formal relationship with Freemasonry.
This is from the link you just provided.
And what does this have to do with preaching in history class?
Posted by Timothy Odell on 05/15/2009 @ 05:06PM PT
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Alright, I have changed my mind. I think we should include all of the known religions of the world in our history books.
Wha-wha-what? you say.
Sure. Let's give them the true history of these religions.
Let's include Christianity. How Emperor Caesar Flavius Valerius Aurelius Constantinus Augustus, in 325 A.D. convened the first Council of Nicaea. It's purpose being to bring peace to the empire by attempting to merge the pagan sun worship and its holidays with the christian religion. Interestingly, Constantine was the Pontifex Maximus or head of the pagan priesthood.
Among other things they decided on a date to celebrate the "Resurrection" (Easter), that the works of Arius were ordered to be confiscated and consigned to the flames while all persons found possessing them were to be executed, and which texts to be included or excluded in scripture. This was known as the Vetus Latina which was later edited into the Vulgate Bible of St. Jerome (382-405 AD).
Later, the Old Testament was copied, edited and distributed by a group of Jews known as the Masoretes between the seventh and tenth centuries AD.
Yet later, the old and new testaments were re-translated, re-edited, and re-assembled with the Tyndale New Testament of 1525, the Great Bible of 1538, the Bishop's Bible of 1568 (which was substantially revised in 1572), and the infamous King James version in 1611.
During these revisions books and portions thereof were added and deleted according to the whims of the various editors. In the last of those the king gave the translators instructions designed to guarantee that the new version would conform to the beliefs of the Church of England.
I could go on and go much deeper with this but I think I make my point. How do you teach a history of something that started so obscure and has been bastardized repeatedly since. Even the distantly accepted versions of the Old Testament were extremely different from those in the Dead Sea Scrolls, particularly some manuscripts of the books of Exodus and Samual found in Cave Four exhibit dramatic differences in both language and content.
Or how about Islam. Created by a shepherd (Muhammad Ibn Abdullah) holed up in a cave around 610 A.D. No-one bought into his rantings at first. Slowly he gained a few followers and then like any fad, more and more. Unfortunately for us all this fad never died.
So I say yes, teach the true history of these religions and soon enough no-one will believe these silly but dangerous, misguided, man-created, superstitions. Reason, logic and sanity will someday prevail.
Personally I worship Santa, he rewards me every year instead of waiting until I'm dead -.)
Posted by Timothy Odell on 05/15/2009 @ 04:34PM PT
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Nice summary, Timothy. Say as much as you want. There's so much good history done on these texts in the past 100 years, it amazes me that the people most devoted to them don't read it.
I'm reading _Misquoting Jesus_ right now, among other things. Elaine Pagels is still probably my favorite historian of early Christianity - and she doesn't simply bash it. She shows its complexity, which is a good cure for so much of the simple-mindedness toward the subject today.
Posted by Clay Burell on 05/15/2009 @ 06:27PM PT
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Now this is exciting.
Putting reason and the advancement of education into practice and actuating critical thinking skills.
The exciting part for me is based on an equitable and just learning environment that should endeovr to bring out into the cleansing light of day factual information.
End the utter (or udder) absolutely stupid offensive arrogant proselytizing and please get on with the research and discussion.
Thank You Tim, (yes even you Clay) just kidding.
Posted by Frederic Starchenkov... on 05/16/2009 @ 06:43AM PT
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Thanks guys,
Only through education can the light of reason outshine the dark cloud of ignorance. Religion is nothing more than a terminal case of hope.
I will have to find a copy of that book now Clay.
Years ago I read a very thick black book called "The Other Bible" (Willis Barnstone - 1984). This book showed the origin of the various books included in the bible. It showed previous translations and their differences.
It also includes ancient alternative scriptures. Most remarkable to me were the various versions of Genesis. There were four different ones from the same original sources. In one there were a number of different gods, each tasked with a different aspect of creation. They argued and fought about their differences of opinion over the final product.
It includes writings such as Eve raising Adam up from the mud, the rape of Eve by the Supreme Creator and his Angels, and other mind-blowing ancient texts.
It also included much New Testament work later abandoned by the church. There exist chronicles of the early years of Jesus which were not included because it was felt they cast a bad light on Jesus. One I still remember concerned a couple of bullies young Jesus willed to death for stomping on the mud pies he and his friends were making by the lake. Hard to call someone like that perfect. Wouldn't do to have Jesus just have been a man with a temper and other faults like the rest of us. I'm surprised they included the story of his tirade in the merchants square tipping over the vendors tables and such.
It's a good read and also includes most of the Dead Sea Scrolls translated as of that time.
Posted by Timothy Odell on 05/16/2009 @ 11:17AM PT
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Tim ! how wonderfully exciting is your reference base.
Now i'm trying to be gone, but this one last attempt then gone.
So important for me in what you wrote is the need to de-construct the language to peal back the accurate meanings in the context of time that the perceptions were put down.
Same as many of us multilingual persons, i am reminded of the difficulty of translating Russian because Russian is based on idioms and fable like references that cannot be translated from any written manuscript as only an intimate knowledge of the time and region will allow the true meanings to be transported from one generation to the next.
Translations ate like IQ tests where IQ tests are ignorant instruments of measure given that the average American could not score above a full swing dementia on the IQ test of deepest Amazon or make it out even alive never mind the test.
Translation oft becomes the propaganda of the interpreting agenda like those who labe the beautiful giving women Temple whores which is only the hateful spin created by the demented perspective of misogyny.
On the other wave length of change.org please send me any titles you have time to transmit.
The de-construction of demonization and spin is so critical to analysis.
Stimulating and exciting, Tim Thank you.
Posted by Frederic Starchenkov... on 05/16/2009 @ 11:53AM PT
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Yes, if you google "the Other Bible" and go to Amazon you can view the table of contents.
And you are so right. Nothing ever means quite the same thing after it is translated, especially for a dead language no-one speaks anymore. Even a couple centuries within the same language can mean a completely different thing for the same phrase.
Then you get zealots who want to take these passages word for word after translation through not just one but several languages. Senselessly ignorant of reality.
Posted by Timothy Odell on 05/16/2009 @ 02:40PM PT
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I would agree that the secular history of religious organizations should be taught in Social Studies classes. It would serve two very beneficial purposes:
1) It would add much needed context to events in history that would otherwise be absent. For example, someone who has no knowledge of the Catholic Church of the 1600s would have a difficult time understanding why Henry VIII felt he needed to separate off the Church of England from the Catholic Church.
2) It will help to keep the mistakes of the past from recurring. Learning how people commandeered the original purposes of their various religions in order to force their personal agendas would teach children the evils inherent in using any cause, but especially religious ones, to restrict the freedoms of others.
As to the translation of religious texts, I agree with you guys for the most part. That's why I learned Koine Greek, and followed the lineage of the particular manuscripts that my printed collection includes. Granted, I didn't do either of these without help from others, including both secular and religious scholars. I have yet to learn Hebrew or Aramaic, though I hope to before I die.
Even in the original languages, there is still information that has been lost due to the lack of use of the languages since the time of the writings. This is exactly why you cannot be a Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc., thoughtlessly. You have to work hard and have an education in order to understand the origins of the teachings. The teachings, themselves, are simple for the most part, but being assured that they originate from whom you think they do takes much research and study, both secular and religious.
In fact, that's one of the things that I believe is the biggest stumbling block to Muslims in the Middle East. Because the Koran is written in the common language of the region, but an extremely old dialect, they think they understand what they are reading, but don't. That's why you don't see so many Muslim extremists in non-Arabic speaking countries. They had to be educated people to understand any of their religious text.
Same goes for the Cult of the King James. That translation of the Bible is passable if it's the only available, but even then, you have to translate the old English (which was translated from even older English) into modern English. People honestly think that they understand what they are reading, but haven't a clue, and thus many uneducated people think they understand their religion but miss or outright ignore the subtleties, and then move toward extremist tendencies which are dangerous... very dangerous.
Posted by Chris Meacham on 05/19/2009 @ 02:30PM PT
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The priests of the different religious sects… dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight, and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subdivision of the duperies on which they live.
- Thomas Jefferson
Posted by Paulino Valenzuela on 05/16/2009 @ 07:15AM PT
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I find it highly funny that only people who are highly anti christian in thought keep their posts no matter how inflamitory they may be and when someone challenges another thought their post is banned. This whole topic degressed into a hate Christianty thread instead of the orginal topic of what the Texas board Of education should do about text books and teaching.
Posted by Paul Amschler on 05/26/2009 @ 12:52PM PT
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I find it highly significant that whenever a so called Christian is challenged and are unable to answer with logical argument they immediately go in to their paranoid "you hate God" or "you hate Christians" mode. Most people of my acquaintance who do not accept your myths either feel sorry for or despise Christians; depending on whether you are sorry sheep or the sleazy shearer.
Paul, do some real research and you will find your so called Christianity has nothing in common with the original church founded by the man that was given that miserable Greek label by your namesake; the original sleazy shearer.
If you find the need to answer this comment please try to do so without lying or putting words into my mouth in the typical "Christian" manner.
Posted by michael sawyer on 05/26/2009 @ 02:23PM PT
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Paul,
I tried for a week to talk to these liberals who are nothing of the kind. They fire back with double speak and hatred. When Satan comes down on them they will come crying for our Lord. We have planted our seeds. They will wilt or grow. Leave the rest to the Holy Spirit Brother.
Posted by Mickey Theade on 05/26/2009 @ 04:58PM PT
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Paul,
I tried for a week to talk to these liberals who are nothing of the kind. They fire back with double speak and hatred. When Satan comes down on them they will come crying for our Lord. We have planted our seeds. They will wilt or grow. Leave the rest to the Holy Spirit Brother.
Posted by Mickey Theade on 05/26/2009 @ 04:59PM PT
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Paul
No one post is banned.... No one is anti christian.. as long as the good apples (unlike Mickey) dont try to shove their god down on non believers who are part of the public schools.
alot of christian are anti gay, anti anything that isnt part of their ways and thinks they have the right to tell non believers how to live?
BTW Mikey you summoning Satan on non believers only shows who really worship the entity Satan.. which is you.. wishing bad things to happen on others mikey is bad Karma..
thought you should know. lol
Posted by Lara Nunes on 05/26/2009 @ 07:23PM PT
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