I've been reading Common Sense School Reform (crappy title, great book).  The more I read the more it becomes clear that Diane is right.

The educational system is locked in the 19th century, an antiquated industrial education system as out of date as telegraphs or apple IIgs(I worked in a school that still used a few!).  Break the idea of how things have been done for so many years.  Stop blaming, starting changing how we hire, who we hire, how we spend funds, everything.

I find everyone who lays blame or dismisses an approach without offering an alternative, because I think we can all agree things are good as they are, is just holding us back.

I've read proposals that school boards be done away with entirely. The situation in Texas is a good example of why. What kind of changes would doing this bring about, I wonder...

If we're going to include Creationism, then let's include all the other major and minor religions' and cultures' creation stories as well. I think that would be a great class; I would have taken it in high school.

However, that would not be a SCIENCE class. That would be a social studies class.

(While we're at it, can I teach the class on the Flying Spaghetti Monster?)

How about we leave education decisions to those who have the most to gain or lose by those decisions?  The parents.  These are the types of arguments that come up when you insist on a "one size fits all" solution.  The greater distance between the decision maker and those who must live with those decisions, the less chance there is that the decisions made will be wise.

You can teach a class on whatever kind of monster you like.  But you should have to rely on the public's willingness to pay to send their kids to your school... not rely on a government bureaucracy to force what you're teaching on the public.

I think it's highly immoral for a government to coercively take my money and then spend it on a broken educational system.  We have taken the power away from the people and given it to bureaucrats.  That is dangerous, because your kids' minds are at the mercy of whoever is in power.  They will decide to enforce the teaching of what is most advantageous to them.  That is NOT freedom.

"A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement." Thomas Jefferson

How about we leave education decisions to those who have the most to gain or lose by those decisions?  The parents.  These are the types of arguments that come up when you insist on a "one size fits all" solution.  The greater distance between the decision maker and those who must live with those decisions, the less chance there is that the decisions made will be wise.

You can teach a class on whatever kind of monster you like.  But you should have to rely on the public's willingness to pay to send their kids to your school... not rely on a government bureaucracy to force what you're teaching on the public.

I think it's highly immoral for a government to coercively take my money and then spend it on a broken educational system.  We have taken the power away from the people and given it to bureaucrats.  That is dangerous, because your kids' minds are at the mercy of whoever is in power.  They will decide to enforce the teaching of what is most advantageous to them.  That is NOT freedom.

"A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement." Thomas Jefferson

How about we leave education decisions to those who have the most to gain or lose by those decisions?  The parents.  These are the types of arguments that come up when you insist on a "one size fits all" solution.  The greater distance between the decision maker and those who must live with those decisions, the less chance there is that the decisions made will be wise.

You can teach a class on whatever kind of monster you like.  But you should have to rely on the public's willingness to pay to send their kids to your school... not rely on a government bureaucracy to force what you're teaching on the public.

I think it's highly immoral for a government to coercively take my money and then spend it on a broken educational system.  We have taken the power away from the people and given it to bureaucrats.  That is dangerous, because your kids' minds are at the mercy of whoever is in power.  They will decide to enforce the teaching of what is most advantageous to them.  That is NOT freedom.

"A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement." Thomas Jefferson

How about we leave education decisions to those who have the most to gain or lose by those decisions?  The parents.  These are the types of arguments that come up when you insist on a "one size fits all" solution.  The greater distance between the decision maker and those who must live with those decisions, the less chance there is that the decisions made will be wise.

You can teach a class on whatever kind of monster you like.  But you should have to rely on the public's willingness to pay to send their kids to your school... not rely on a government bureaucracy to force what you're teaching on the public.

I think it's highly immoral for a government to coercively take my money and then spend it on a broken educational system.  We have taken the power away from the people and given it to bureaucrats.  That is dangerous, because your kids' minds are at the mercy of whoever is in power.  They will decide to enforce the teaching of what is most advantageous to them.  That is NOT freedom.

"A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement." Thomas Jefferson

"Those who have the most to gain or lose by those decisions" are not the parents, it is the community.  If students are not learning the skills they need to become productive members of society, then society has to deal with that problem, not just the parents. While there are some pockets of communities that refuse to understand science is a fact, the vast majority of society agrees that science, including evolution, must be taught in schools.

Karen:

"treating Creationism as a possibility, every bit as believable as The Big Bang theory?  Darwinism is a theory, so why is it treated as if it is proven science? It's no more proven than the manmade global warming theory, as far as I know."

A theory, by definition, is based on tested hypothesis using FACTS, EVIDENCE with the fundamental purpose that is open to all contradictory evidence.  It can only be disproved because once it can be called a theory, the facts and evidence gathered has refuted the formerly accepted notions.  Creationism is not a thoery it is a belief that only few people from one of many religons believe in.  So, no. Creationism can not be treated as credible as Darwins theory of evolution because it is not credible.  Science has proved it wrong.

"what is there to fear" you ask?  It is the sad realization that so far America lags behind multiple countries in the fields of science and math.  presenting these poor children with an "alternative" not only contradicts the FACTS and EVIDENCE found in the real world, it is discriminatory.  We're not all Christians, and not all Christians even believe this creationism crap.  If you want your kids to learn about creationism, send them to Sunday school.  Don't force your religious ignorance on the rest of the class.

You're right, there needs to be more educating so stop your indoctrinatin; forcing your ideals and beliefs on others as fact when they are not.

The reason the educational system is failing so many kids is because it has failed to keep up with the changing times, and because the people making the decisions don't have the experience and expertiese necessary to make good decisions on the matter.

The "educational professionals" are not the ones making the decision about education -- this is the point Chris makes. You cannot blame the "educational professionals" for failing the kids and creating this faulty system when they are not the ones running it. They are merely the bank tellers, doing what they are told by the people in charge.

And, by the way, I wish I could pick my doctor. I have to go to one on The List. I don't get to choose the doctor I want, my employer's insurance plan decides that for me. And my employer likes to change providers every year, so I have to find a new doctor on The List every year. BRING ON universal health care.

Perhaps the reason it has failed is because it has changed too much!  Instead of teaching students to think, "educators" are doing the thinking for them.  Deciding what they are to believe, rather than teaching them how to think for themselves.  We are quickly going down the slippery slope of Nannyism precisely because more and more people are refusing to think or do for themselves, and relying on the government to do everything for them.

I guess we can agree that the wrong people are making the education decisions for our children.  But you want to give the power to make those decisions to the "educational professionals" and I want to give it to the parents.  I don't believe the "educational professionals" have the best interests of my children in mind.  They have their own best interests in mind, and will do anything necessary to promote those interests.  Until education is taken out of the hands of bueaucrats and "educational professionals" it will simply remain a tool of the government and a cash cow for the NEA.  Let's work to put the power back where it belongs... in the hands of the parents.

Your statement about not being able to choose your doctor is precisely the argument for NOT going with universal health care.  You're simply experiencing it at the employer level instead of the government level.  If you have any illusions that the government isn't going to choose your doctor for you, get rid of them!  Just study other countries that have universal health care.  It NEVER works.  It gets more and more expensive, there is less choice, and there is rationing of health care.  So thank you for pointing out the failings of managed care!  Perhaps that will make some people think twice about universal health care.  Let's make health care more affordable by demanding tort reform, not giving up more of our freedom to the government!

The reason our schools are broken is because those who are not education professionals have decided that we need to base everything on tests and multiple-choice scores. This is why students are not allowed to think anymore -- they are only allowed to fill in bubbles on a Scantron. Education professionals DID NOT make this decision.

I have a hard time understanding your reasoning. You do not trust teachers ("education professionals") to educate. So who will do it, then? Are you suggesting the government force everyone to homeschool?

Regarding universal health care: I don't choose my doctor now, and I won't choose her then. What's the difference? The difference will be I won't have to change doctors every time I change jobs, or every time my employer decides that this other company gives cheaper insurance, so now I have to find a new doctor based on the new List. I won't have to fear leaving my job because I'll lose my health insurance. I'm no expert, just sharing my take on the issue.

Karen-

Why would you label me as a liberal? I made no mention of my political leanings whatsoever; and I see no way you could discern my voting patterns from my post.

On top of that you missed the point of my post entirely. Teachers do not get to make the system-wide decisions in education. We do however get to shoulder the blame.

I can understand your concern for the well-being of your child. I have a son. I too want what's best for him. As a teacher I have an additional concern though. I want what's best for all 130 of the students in my charge as well, including those students of mine who have no caring parents to speak of.

Education is a tough job, and I take it very seriously. The vast majority of my colleagues feel the same way. Before you start throwing around terms such as "fascism" and "failing our kids" I invite you to contact your local public school district, put on a sub badge, and come teach or assist for a semester. Then perhaps I will feel you have earned the right to call my kids, "our kids".

Your voting patterns wouldn't matter much in both cases, since most Republican and Democrat politicians these days are very left of center.

My point is that the decision making shouldn't be made by the "educational professionals."  They should be made by the parents, who are footing the bills, and who have the most at stake.... their children's futures.

I realize that education is a tough job.  I have friends who are teachers.  Most of them are liberals, who believe think I am a nut job because I don't think children today are getting a better education than I did in the 50's and early 60s.  I do not have children of school age anymore.  If I did, I would seriously consider home schooling them.  It would be worth sacrificing income to make sure that my children were not being indoctrinated by "educational professionals."

I have been a school volunteer for many years, spending many hours in school libraries and classrooms.  I admire people who want to teach, and who can connect with children.  I only wish that school was more about education than it was about indoctrination.

Jonah Goldberg is an uneducated, ignorant moron.  If he is where you get your facts from, I feel bad for your children

Karen, you are free to homeschool your children if you disagree so strongly with the material that is presented in public schools. The "evil" government does allow you that choice.

Homeschooling does not require you to stay at home with your children all day, either; there are co-ops and other organizations where you can pick and choose what your children will learn and have that control you demand over the curriculum even if you cannot afford to stay with them full-time and be their sole teacher. Have you looked into those options?

Criss: nicely put

Karen:  Thank you for the "elitist".  I know what the word means, do you?

And for the record, Evolution is not "make believe".  These crazy things called FACTS and EVIDENCE prove the earth is billions (millions?) of years old, dinosaurs and people did NOT exist together, and life was not created in a day.  Creationism is make believe.  God did not write the bible himself and the wording of the bible has in fact been altered over time due to translation differences and even monarchs in the 1400-1600 were recorded as having them altered as a means to police the people.  Look it up.

So lets weigh this here: On one hand we have a book written by some person 2000 years ago, whose credibility is uncertain given the translation and alteration of the text.  On the other we have scientific proof (those pesky things called FACTS and EVIDENCE) that continues to back itself up, and all while disproving the fundamentals of creationism.

....hmmmm, which one is "make believe"....

So if I chose to ride my bike to work instead of drive on the highway, should the government give me back the tax money that goes to pay for highway maintenance so I can spend that money on my bike?

If I don't have children, should the government give me back the tax money it spends on child protective services?

If I don't go to jail, should the government give me back the tax money it spends on prisions?